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In the UK Chinese funded international masters/phd students have to send back to China reports about their fellow students as a condition of their funding. The

In the UK Chinese funded international masters/phd students have to send back to China reports about their fellow students as a condition of their funding. There's no mandatory spying expected if the position is funded privately or by the host institution. I expect that the spying is just limited to their fellow state funded students although I have heard of significant tension between mainland and Hong Kong students about this. I don't know if Hong Kong students have to spy.

2OEH8eoCRo0 2y ago
I take it these reports don't stop when they are interns?
- thinkingemote 2y ago
  Depends if the funding stops. I think if they get a job at the university and do not need the funding, then the reports can stop.
- qwezxcrty 2y ago
  I'm not sure about CSC (China Scholarship Concil) funded students, but being an intern funded by a Chinese university myself some years ago, I didn't need to report anything back beyonds a final scientific report signed by my US advisor. Tangential: in my personal experience, the need for CSC funding for UK PhD programs is due to the very little available funding opportunities for foreign students. Doing a PhD without financial support in an expensive country is ridiculous for most families in China. Most students would actually try to avoid that if it's possible to secure funding in alternative ways (like the paid PhD programs elsewhere in the world), as CSC funding comes with a requirement of returning to China after finishing the study and this limits opportunities of the students to work abroad afterwards.
mrtksn 2y ago
UK itself is a particularly interesting case, In Turkey when they have a new shiny politician, there's a running joke to check if they went to University of Exeter. For some reason, all the lightly islamist politicians of Turkey have been to Exeter at some point in their life.
echelon 2y ago
I'm shocked this is a thread on HN. Until recently these threads were flagged and removed from HN, and participants to conversations stating these things were warned of possible future bans. It looks like the conversation has changed quite dramatically. The geopolitical tone has trickled down to tech and VC. Firms like a16z are going all in on "American dynamism", which is basically about competition with China. It's almost every week you hear about China's sixth gen fighters, NGAD, drones, military spending, etc. in the media. Now the various institutional interests want to invest in capabilities to deter this. But this kind of conversation, even if handled delicately in a way that was super mindful of not being xenophobic, was entirely forboden just a few short years ago. Talking about Chinese national students as possible spies. Wow. My ban avoidance scar tissue still tingles with this subject matter. I'm wondering out loud if this geopolitical tension and rivalry is kosher to talk about now.
- nindalf 2y ago
  dang would have to weigh in but it might be accepted because it’s not that far fetched? Look at all the other allegations in the economist article we’re discussing - in the context of all that flagrant conduct asking state funded students to rat on others is relatively tame.
- DarkNova6 2y ago
  I know some chinese people very well and even they have been warning about spies on campus for years. I don’t buy the xenophobia argument.
  - qwezxcrty 2y ago
    As an Chinese expat, I have indeed heard rumors about undercovers from Chinese three letters agencies in events organized by dissentients (like falungong) and I would try my best to avoid being involved. However I hope the collateral damage to the innocent Chinese expats can be minimized. The reason of many of those to stay outside of China are concerns about the the ruling party and the desire to keep a distance from it. (Admittly also a higher quality of life, but no longer true in many cases.)
  - 2y ago
demarq 2y ago
> In the UK Chinese funded international masters/phd students have to send back to China reports about their fellow students as a condition of their funding. That's a major claim, do you have a link to an article or source?
- nickdothutton 2y ago
  Not the OP but I found this interesting so went digging [1]. >Amongst other things, the contract also commits the recipient to “regularly submit” a formal “Situation Report” (called the Study/Research/Training Situation Report for Personnel Studying Abroad 出国留学人员学习/研修情况报告) to the relevant Chinese embassy or consulate, and “participate in annual PhD student reviews” there. [1] https://ukctransparency.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/11/China-Scholarship-Council-Rules-translation-and-notes-1.pdf https://ukctransparency.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/11/China...
  - qwezxcrty 2y ago
    You can find the template of this report online by just Googling "出国留学人员学习/研修情况报告", it has English translation and appears to have a "Professor's Evaluation" section to be filled and signed by the foreign advisor. There might be something else but this looks like a progress evaluation form and is hardly concerning.
    - demarq 2y ago
      > There might be something else but this looks like a progress evaluation form and is hardly concerning. There is indeed something else > An online announcement from January 2019 by the Chinese consulate in Belfast even suggests recipients should report important papers published, patents obtained, and inventions made by those they work with at British universities. I was unable to load the url for this, but it's not looking good. A certain line is crossed when you have to start reporting on ip that isn't yours.
      - qwezxcrty 2y ago
        If you presume innocence, this requirement can also be interpreted in a harmless way as the funder asking the student to report his/her achievement for an evaluation of the progress. The level of detail and the scope would matter a lot. It's very different whether the student is required to show that he coauthored 2x Science, 1x Nature Photonics and have a patent about something pending, or he need to furnish detailed information about an on-going/unpublished work. I would also expect these dodgy reporting to be done in a more delicate way if they do exist then what's shown on this PDF. Citing the report in my first reply suggests that PDF is simply not a good source.

2OEH8eoCRo0 2y ago

I take it these reports don't stop when they are interns?

thinkingemote 2y ago
Depends if the funding stops. I think if they get a job at the university and do not need the funding, then the reports can stop.
qwezxcrty 2y ago
I'm not sure about CSC (China Scholarship Concil) funded students, but being an intern funded by a Chinese university myself some years ago, I didn't need to report anything back beyonds a final scientific report signed by my US advisor. Tangential: in my personal experience, the need for CSC funding for UK PhD programs is due to the very little available funding opportunities for foreign students. Doing a PhD without financial support in an expensive country is ridiculous for most families in China. Most students would actually try to avoid that if it's possible to secure funding in alternative ways (like the paid PhD programs elsewhere in the world), as CSC funding comes with a requirement of returning to China after finishing the study and this limits opportunities of the students to work abroad afterwards.

mrtksn 2y ago

UK itself is a particularly interesting case, In Turkey when they have a new shiny politician, there's a running joke to check if they went to University of Exeter. For some reason, all the lightly islamist politicians of Turkey have been to Exeter at some point in their life.

echelon 2y ago

I'm shocked this is a thread on HN. Until recently these threads were flagged and removed from HN, and participants to conversations stating these things were warned of possible future bans. It looks like the conversation has changed quite dramatically. The geopolitical tone has trickled down to tech and VC. Firms like a16z are going all in on "American dynamism", which is basically about competition with China. It's almost every week you hear about China's sixth gen fighters, NGAD, drones, military spending, etc. in the media. Now the various institutional interests want to invest in capabilities to deter this. But this kind of conversation, even if handled delicately in a way that was super mindful of not being xenophobic, was entirely forboden just a few short years ago. Talking about Chinese national students as possible spies. Wow. My ban avoidance scar tissue still tingles with this subject matter. I'm wondering out loud if this geopolitical tension and rivalry is kosher to talk about now.

nindalf 2y ago
dang would have to weigh in but it might be accepted because it’s not that far fetched? Look at all the other allegations in the economist article we’re discussing - in the context of all that flagrant conduct asking state funded students to rat on others is relatively tame.
DarkNova6 2y ago
I know some chinese people very well and even they have been warning about spies on campus for years. I don’t buy the xenophobia argument.
- qwezxcrty 2y ago
  As an Chinese expat, I have indeed heard rumors about undercovers from Chinese three letters agencies in events organized by dissentients (like falungong) and I would try my best to avoid being involved. However I hope the collateral damage to the innocent Chinese expats can be minimized. The reason of many of those to stay outside of China are concerns about the the ruling party and the desire to keep a distance from it. (Admittly also a higher quality of life, but no longer true in many cases.)
- 2y ago

demarq 2y ago

> In the UK Chinese funded international masters/phd students have to send back to China reports about their fellow students as a condition of their funding. That's a major claim, do you have a link to an article or source?

nickdothutton 2y ago
Not the OP but I found this interesting so went digging [1]. >Amongst other things, the contract also commits the recipient to “regularly submit” a formal “Situation Report” (called the Study/Research/Training Situation Report for Personnel Studying Abroad 出国留学人员学习/研修情况报告) to the relevant Chinese embassy or consulate, and “participate in annual PhD student reviews” there. [1] https://ukctransparency.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/11/China-Scholarship-Council-Rules-translation-and-notes-1.pdf https://ukctransparency.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/11/China...
- qwezxcrty 2y ago
  You can find the template of this report online by just Googling "出国留学人员学习/研修情况报告", it has English translation and appears to have a "Professor's Evaluation" section to be filled and signed by the foreign advisor. There might be something else but this looks like a progress evaluation form and is hardly concerning.
  - demarq 2y ago
    > There might be something else but this looks like a progress evaluation form and is hardly concerning. There is indeed something else > An online announcement from January 2019 by the Chinese consulate in Belfast even suggests recipients should report important papers published, patents obtained, and inventions made by those they work with at British universities. I was unable to load the url for this, but it's not looking good. A certain line is crossed when you have to start reporting on ip that isn't yours.
    - qwezxcrty 2y ago
      If you presume innocence, this requirement can also be interpreted in a harmless way as the funder asking the student to report his/her achievement for an evaluation of the progress. The level of detail and the scope would matter a lot. It's very different whether the student is required to show that he coauthored 2x Science, 1x Nature Photonics and have a patent about something pending, or he need to furnish detailed information about an on-going/unpublished work. I would also expect these dodgy reporting to be done in a more delicate way if they do exist then what's shown on this PDF. Citing the report in my first reply suggests that PDF is simply not a good source.