6 ms·

As a non-Chinese and a non-American, I care less about the usual geopolitical games, including spying, and more about how the Chinese government treats its own

As a non-Chinese and a non-American, I care less about the usual geopolitical games, including spying, and more about how the Chinese government treats its own citizens. No freedom of speech or conscience, no political freedoms: just work and be an obedient small truckle in the mechanism of the Leviathan. Plus the return of the Cult of Personality, which once even the CCP tried to abandon, but ultimately failed. These are not results of American meddling, these are their own internal choices. I don't buy the explanation that being unfree is somehow intrinsic to East Asian cultures. We have had plenty of authoritarian regimes in Europe, too, and several hundred years ago few people could call themselves personally free. I don't want this model of governance to spread around the globe again. It has been tried before, with disastrous results. Unless we abandon the concept of universal morality completely, treating your own people as disposable serfs is wrong.

rexpop 2y ago
I should think it were fruit of the same root.
crop_rotation 2y ago
While I don't like the lack of freedoms in China, the Chinese government has done an amazing job lifting it's people out of poverty. I am not Chinese but I think most people around the world would gladly take that over being poor (most western people do not know how bad and undignified life in poverty can be)
- asdff 2y ago
  [flagged]
- inglor_cz 2y ago
  The same government has the Great Leap Forward and the Cultural Revolution on its conscience, two initiatives that caused a lot of poverty and destruction for its citizens. This is the inherent risk of all authoritarian regimes: if the top boss goes crazy and demands, say, that you all start to kill sparrows, there is no way to stop him or remove him from power. No division of powers. The very same mechanism caused the Russo-Ukrainian war.
RandomThoughts3 2y ago
> No freedom of speech or conscience, no political freedoms: just work and be an obedient There is significantly more politics involved in how the CPP is run than you think and people complain more than you seem to believe. It’s far from an open democracy but it’s not North Korea either.
A_D_E_P_T 2y ago
Have you actually ever been to China or spoken with any Chinese people in China? (Not expats, but, say, taxi drivers and businessmen.) Frankly, they're practically as free as Americans and Europeans. In some respects they're more free. There's far less violent crime and property crime, too, so living in the city feels more free in ways which should be obvious -- women can walk around alone at night and not fear for their own safety. Imagine walking around Memphis at midnight, alone and unarmed, or parts of London... even as a man, it would be very ill-advised. China's business culture, also, is very explicitly laissez-faire, competition between firms is brutal, and there's less red tape than you'd get in Europe. They do a lot of things right. > treating your own people as disposable serfs How do you mean? How is the average Shanghai banker any more or less of a serf than a banker in Frankfurt or Indianapolis? Democracy?
- asdff 2y ago
  > Imagine walking around Memphis at midnight, alone and unarmed Says it all about your biases that you seriously think this is actually a dangerous proposition in terms of real statistical risk.
  - A_D_E_P_T 2y ago
    Memphis had 63.9 homicides per 100,000 people in 2023. I don't have stats for individual Chinese cities, but China's rate is 0.46 per 100,000 people. In China, it's plausible that the cities are safer than the countryside, and I don't think that Beijing's number is substantially higher than the national average. Basically, you are 139x more likely to be murdered in Memphis.
    - onjectic 2y ago
      It’s comical that you are comparing Memphis to China. But lets take this even further and increase our sample set from just Jan 2023 - Dec 2023, to Jan 1923 - Dec 2023, this is more indicative of the downsides of authoritarianism, and clearly shows Memphis as less homicidal than China.
mmooss 2y ago
> I don't buy the explanation that being unfree is somehow intrinsic to East Asian cultures. You have the obvious examples of Taiwan and (formerly) Hong Kong - actual Chinese political entities, free and democratic and strongly embraced by the people there, and much more prosperous than Communist-controlled China. Also, Japan, South Korea, ...

rexpop 2y ago

I should think it were fruit of the same root.

crop_rotation 2y ago

While I don't like the lack of freedoms in China, the Chinese government has done an amazing job lifting it's people out of poverty. I am not Chinese but I think most people around the world would gladly take that over being poor (most western people do not know how bad and undignified life in poverty can be)

asdff 2y ago
[flagged]
inglor_cz 2y ago
The same government has the Great Leap Forward and the Cultural Revolution on its conscience, two initiatives that caused a lot of poverty and destruction for its citizens. This is the inherent risk of all authoritarian regimes: if the top boss goes crazy and demands, say, that you all start to kill sparrows, there is no way to stop him or remove him from power. No division of powers. The very same mechanism caused the Russo-Ukrainian war.

RandomThoughts3 2y ago

> No freedom of speech or conscience, no political freedoms: just work and be an obedient There is significantly more politics involved in how the CPP is run than you think and people complain more than you seem to believe. It’s far from an open democracy but it’s not North Korea either.

A_D_E_P_T 2y ago

Have you actually ever been to China or spoken with any Chinese people in China? (Not expats, but, say, taxi drivers and businessmen.) Frankly, they're practically as free as Americans and Europeans. In some respects they're more free. There's far less violent crime and property crime, too, so living in the city feels more free in ways which should be obvious -- women can walk around alone at night and not fear for their own safety. Imagine walking around Memphis at midnight, alone and unarmed, or parts of London... even as a man, it would be very ill-advised. China's business culture, also, is very explicitly laissez-faire, competition between firms is brutal, and there's less red tape than you'd get in Europe. They do a lot of things right. > treating your own people as disposable serfs How do you mean? How is the average Shanghai banker any more or less of a serf than a banker in Frankfurt or Indianapolis? Democracy?

asdff 2y ago
> Imagine walking around Memphis at midnight, alone and unarmed Says it all about your biases that you seriously think this is actually a dangerous proposition in terms of real statistical risk.
- A_D_E_P_T 2y ago
  Memphis had 63.9 homicides per 100,000 people in 2023. I don't have stats for individual Chinese cities, but China's rate is 0.46 per 100,000 people. In China, it's plausible that the cities are safer than the countryside, and I don't think that Beijing's number is substantially higher than the national average. Basically, you are 139x more likely to be murdered in Memphis.
  - onjectic 2y ago
    It’s comical that you are comparing Memphis to China. But lets take this even further and increase our sample set from just Jan 2023 - Dec 2023, to Jan 1923 - Dec 2023, this is more indicative of the downsides of authoritarianism, and clearly shows Memphis as less homicidal than China.

mmooss 2y ago

> I don't buy the explanation that being unfree is somehow intrinsic to East Asian cultures. You have the obvious examples of Taiwan and (formerly) Hong Kong - actual Chinese political entities, free and democratic and strongly embraced by the people there, and much more prosperous than Communist-controlled China. Also, Japan, South Korea, ...