4 ms·

Sure if you apply enough mental gymnastics you can invalidate any claim. Good faith reading of his argument would be that a custom, artisan crafted hammer is b

Sure if you apply enough mental gymnastics you can invalidate any claim. Good faith reading of his argument would be that a custom, artisan crafted hammer is better than a factory made one. I can’t say if that is true or not but using chips as an example- probably the most complex man made thing- is bad faith argumentation

NeutralCrane 2y ago
Given that the application here is molecular chemistry aimed at targeting human biology, one of the few problems equally complex as computer chips, I would say their analogy is far more appropriate than a hammer.
- fumeux_fume 2y ago
  That specific sentence is making an analogy using handmade tools. A hammer is an ideal example of a tool. You would expect to find a hammer in a toolbox. A computer chip is not an ideal example of a tool. You would not expect to find a computer chip in a toolbox.
  - fragmede 2y ago
    Laser level, boroscope, camera stud-finder, thermal camera, laser tape measure, multimeter, battery management system on a lithum-something battery pack for power tools; those are all gonna have IC chips in them and it wouldn't be unreasonable to find them in a professional's toolbox.
- portaouflop 2y ago
  Creating a medicine such as the ones mentioned in the talk is FAR more simple than creating microchips - as a starter you don’t need a billion dollar worth clean room and equipment as they clearly demonstrate. So yea human biology is as complex if not more complex I agree - creating medicine after a proven recipe is not.
  - ryao 2y ago
    You do not need “a billion dollar worth clean room and equipment” to make chips. You just need a garage and a bunch of old equipment. Even high school students can make microchips: https://spectrum.ieee.org/the-high-school-student-whos-building-his-own-integrated-circuits https://spectrum.ieee.org/the-high-school-student-whos-build... As your “creating medicine after a proven recipe” remark, that is not how things work. The way it usually works is that you study organic chemistry in college and then you work out a recipe yourself based on the chemical formula. You do not follow a recipe from someone else because recipes are often trade secrets. At least, that is what I took away from studying organic chemistry in college. Well, that and a remark by the professor that those making illicit drugs take that course before getting started.
    - scarecrowbob 2y ago
      This is an interesting comment, because before you mentioned it I did not even consider DIY chip fab was a possibility. In the context of access to cheap mass production, it would of course be silly to use the DIY product of that professionally. In the context of "having zero access" to the technology, then the hand-produced products can be better than nothing, especially if the "no access" alternative is heinous or deadly in its own right. It's kind of a micro-scale version of the larger discussion, perhaps?
timon999 2y ago
If someone claims that X is "always"(!) the case, then giving just one example where X is not the case counts as a refutation. The statement that the GP quoted is just obviously false and there is nothing "bad faith" about pointing that out.
- mistermann 2y ago
  One some topics this is realized and praised on HN. On other topics, the cognition flips. This is the nature of evolved, culturally conditioned consciousness (one of the things most HN'ers like talking about from an abstract perspective, but really don't like talking about at the object level during discussions of certain controversial ideas, when heuristics have taken control of the mind). For fun: observe the nature of comments in this thread from a meta perspective of a curious alien observer.
  - fragmede 2y ago
    Most of the people here aren't biochemists, hence q "biochemistry = scary untouchable magic" POV. But for those that have done the chemistry in a university setting before and gone on to being professionals in the field, know the plant-based history of the field, as well as the history of synthesizing "stuff" and ingesting it, by certain individuals in the field. it's important to get the chemistry right, but if you know the failure modes, it's far less of a black box and thus less scary.
    - ryao 2y ago
      My college chemistry professor said never to ingest anything made in a lab. Thus far, I have followed this rule and I have been fine, not that I have been around any chemistry labs since college. A chemist broke this rule on YouTube by turning styrofoam into cinnamon candy that he ate himself, but he went through an extreme amount of effort to make it safe: https://youtu.be/zMaTrgUKC1w https://youtu.be/zMaTrgUKC1w
      - fragmede 2y ago
mistermann 2y ago
Live by the sword die by the sword.
- cess11 2y ago
  It's a good day to die.

NeutralCrane 2y ago

Given that the application here is molecular chemistry aimed at targeting human biology, one of the few problems equally complex as computer chips, I would say their analogy is far more appropriate than a hammer.

fumeux_fume 2y ago
That specific sentence is making an analogy using handmade tools. A hammer is an ideal example of a tool. You would expect to find a hammer in a toolbox. A computer chip is not an ideal example of a tool. You would not expect to find a computer chip in a toolbox.
- fragmede 2y ago
  Laser level, boroscope, camera stud-finder, thermal camera, laser tape measure, multimeter, battery management system on a lithum-something battery pack for power tools; those are all gonna have IC chips in them and it wouldn't be unreasonable to find them in a professional's toolbox.
portaouflop 2y ago
Creating a medicine such as the ones mentioned in the talk is FAR more simple than creating microchips - as a starter you don’t need a billion dollar worth clean room and equipment as they clearly demonstrate. So yea human biology is as complex if not more complex I agree - creating medicine after a proven recipe is not.
- ryao 2y ago
  You do not need “a billion dollar worth clean room and equipment” to make chips. You just need a garage and a bunch of old equipment. Even high school students can make microchips: https://spectrum.ieee.org/the-high-school-student-whos-building-his-own-integrated-circuits https://spectrum.ieee.org/the-high-school-student-whos-build... As your “creating medicine after a proven recipe” remark, that is not how things work. The way it usually works is that you study organic chemistry in college and then you work out a recipe yourself based on the chemical formula. You do not follow a recipe from someone else because recipes are often trade secrets. At least, that is what I took away from studying organic chemistry in college. Well, that and a remark by the professor that those making illicit drugs take that course before getting started.
  - scarecrowbob 2y ago
    This is an interesting comment, because before you mentioned it I did not even consider DIY chip fab was a possibility. In the context of access to cheap mass production, it would of course be silly to use the DIY product of that professionally. In the context of "having zero access" to the technology, then the hand-produced products can be better than nothing, especially if the "no access" alternative is heinous or deadly in its own right. It's kind of a micro-scale version of the larger discussion, perhaps?

timon999 2y ago

If someone claims that X is "always"(!) the case, then giving just one example where X is not the case counts as a refutation. The statement that the GP quoted is just obviously false and there is nothing "bad faith" about pointing that out.

mistermann 2y ago
One some topics this is realized and praised on HN. On other topics, the cognition flips. This is the nature of evolved, culturally conditioned consciousness (one of the things most HN'ers like talking about from an abstract perspective, but really don't like talking about at the object level during discussions of certain controversial ideas, when heuristics have taken control of the mind). For fun: observe the nature of comments in this thread from a meta perspective of a curious alien observer.
- fragmede 2y ago
  Most of the people here aren't biochemists, hence q "biochemistry = scary untouchable magic" POV. But for those that have done the chemistry in a university setting before and gone on to being professionals in the field, know the plant-based history of the field, as well as the history of synthesizing "stuff" and ingesting it, by certain individuals in the field. it's important to get the chemistry right, but if you know the failure modes, it's far less of a black box and thus less scary.
  - ryao 2y ago
    My college chemistry professor said never to ingest anything made in a lab. Thus far, I have followed this rule and I have been fine, not that I have been around any chemistry labs since college. A chemist broke this rule on YouTube by turning styrofoam into cinnamon candy that he ate himself, but he went through an extreme amount of effort to make it safe: https://youtu.be/zMaTrgUKC1w https://youtu.be/zMaTrgUKC1w
    - fragmede 2y ago

mistermann 2y ago

Live by the sword die by the sword.

cess11 2y ago
It's a good day to die.