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> So why didn't Apple just simply ask for user permission to enable this feature? That’s an interesting question. Something to consider, iOS photos has allowed

> So why didn't Apple just simply ask for user permission to enable this feature? That’s an interesting question. Something to consider, iOS photos has allowed you to search for photos using the address the photo was taken at. To do that requires the Photos app to take the lat/long of a photos location, and do a reverse-geo lookup to get a human understandable address. Something that pretty much always involves querying a global reverse-geo service. Do you consider this feature to be a violation of your privacy, requiring an opt-in? If not, then how is a reverse-geo lookup service more private than a landmark lookup service?

lapcat 2y ago
This would work only if you've already given the Camera app permission to geotag your photos, which I haven't, so it may be a nonissue.
- brians 2y ago
  It works if you use the Photos app to look at any image with a geo EXIF tag. But thank you for one more demonstration that even the HN crowd can’t reliably give or deny informed consent here.
  - lapcat 2y ago
    And how, pray tell, do geotagged images magically get into your Photos library? I actually couldn't get Photos address search to work right in my testing before writing my previous comment, even with a geotagged photo that I just took. So I'm not sure whether I have some setting disabled that prevents it. The only match was via character recognition of a printed form that I had photographed. To be clear, I meant that it was a nonissue for me, because I don't geotag my photos (except in that one test). Whether it's an issue for other people, I don't know. One of the problems with iPhone lockdown is that it's a lot more difficult to investigate how things work technically than on the Mac.
    - heartbreak 2y ago
      > And how, pray tell, do geotagged images magically get into your Photos library? By saving them from any source other than the camera app you’ve configured to not use geo-tagging.
      - lapcat 2y ago
        I don't do that. My Photos library contains camera snapshots and screenshots, nothing else.
        heartbreak 2y ago
        The point still stands. That’s how geo-tagged images get in your photos, and the search function still works. For what it’s worth, I’m surprised that you never save photos to your phone that you didn’t take yourself. Do people not send you interesting pictures? Pictures of yourself?
        lapcat 2y ago
        I don't actually use my phone for much. Taking photos, making phone calls. I'm not the kind of person who lives on their phone. I live on my laptop (which has Location Services disabled entirely). I don't even use Photos app on Mac anymore. They've ruined it compared to the old iPhoto. I just keep my photos in folders in Finder.
        penguinburglar 2y ago
        [flagged]
        deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
        asadotzler 2y ago
        you started out suggesting it wasn't possible and when presented with a common case showing it was not only possible but likely, you moved the goal posts and now say "well, I don't do that." Weak sauce.
  - j45 2y ago
    It's all about soundbite replies. The issue is much deeper for anyone who has remotely worked with EXIF data for any creative or professional work they do.
hn3er1q 2y ago
> Do you consider this feature to be a violation of your privacy, requiring an opt-in? I suppose in some sense it is, as it a reverse-geo lookup service, but it's also no where near to the front in the location privacy war. Cell phone providers basically know your exact position at all times when you have your phone on you, credit card companies know basically everything, cars track driving directly, etc. etc. I can see why some people would be up in arms but for me this one doesn't feel like missing the forest for the trees, it feels like missing the forest for the leaves.
- avianlyric 2y ago
  I very much agree with your position. There are legitimate questions to be asked about this feature being opt-in, although we may find that you implicitly opt-in if you enable Apple Intelligence or similar. But the argument that this specific feature represents some new beachhead in some great war against privacy strikes me as little more that clickbate hyperbole. If Apple really wanted to track people’s locations, it would be trivial for them to do so, without all this cloak and dagger nonsense people seem to come up with. Equally, is a state entity wanted to track your location (or even track people’s locations at scale), there’s a myriad of trivially easy ways for them to do so, without resorting to forcing Apple to spy on their customers via complex computer vision landmark lookup system.
doctorpangloss 2y ago
You’re right. But: Anyone in IT or tech, thinking deeply about the raw facts. They know it always boils down to trust, not technology. The interesting thing is that Apple has created a cathedral of seemingly objective sexy technical details that feel like security. But since it’s all trust, feelings matter! So my answer is, if it feels like a privacy violation, it is. Your technical comparison will be more persuasive if you presented it in Computer Modern in a white paper, or if you are an important Substack author or reply guy, or maybe take a cue from the shawarma guy on Valencia Street and do a hunger strike while comparing two ways to get location info.
- benwaffle 2y ago
  Apple chose to implement things like OHTTP and homomorphic encryption when they could easily have done without it. Doesn't that count for something?
  - j45 2y ago
    Nope. It's still taking the user's data away without informing them, and saying trust us we super good encrypted it. Apple is building a location database, for free, from user's photos and saying it's anonymized. It's not a service I want, nor one I authorize. Nor are my photos licensed to Apple to get that information from me. Encryption is only good relative to computational power to break it available to the many, or the few. Computational power usually seems always available in 10-20-30 years to generally break encryption for the average person, as unimaginably hard it seems in the present. I don't have interest in taking any technical bait from the conversation at hand. Determined groups with resources could find ways.. This results in no security or encryption.
    - avianlyric 2y ago
      > Apple is building a location database, for free, from user's photos and saying it's anonymized. Where on earth did you get that from? The photos app is sending an 8bit embedding for its lookup query, how are they going to build a location database from that? Even if they were sending entire photos, how do you imagine someone builds a location database from that? You still need something to figure out what the image is, and if you already have that, why would you need to build it again? > Encryption is only good relative to computational power to break it available to the many, or the few. > Determined groups with resources could find ways.. This results in no security or encryption. Tell me, do you sell tin foil hats as a side hustle or something? If this is your view on encryption why are you worried about a silly photos app figuring out what landmarks are in your photos. You basically believe that it’s impossible for digital privacy of any variety is effectively impossible, and that you also believe this is a meaningful threat to “normal” people. The only way to meet your criteria for safe privacy is to ensue all forms of digital communication (which would include Hacker News FYI). So either you’re knowingly making disingenuous hyperbolic arguments, you’re a complete hypocrite, or you like to live “dangerously”.
j45 2y ago
It's a complete violation if it's a new or changed setting from the default state of the user not having it possible. Something to consider - location is geo-encoded already into photos and doesn't need this uploaded to Apple servers. Searching can be done locally on device for location. Apple goes as far as to offer a setting to allow the user to share photos and remove the geocoding from it. Offering a new feature is opt-in. Unfortunately, against my better wishes, this only erodes trust and confidence in Apple that if this is happening visibly, what could be happening that is unknown.
hamandcheese 2y ago
> To do that requires the Photos app to take the lat/long of a photos location, and do a reverse-geo lookup to get a human understandable address. It seems trivially possible to do this in a more privacy preserving way: geocode the search query and filter photos locally. No idea how Apple implements it though.

lapcat 2y ago

This would work only if you've already given the Camera app permission to geotag your photos, which I haven't, so it may be a nonissue.

brians 2y ago
It works if you use the Photos app to look at any image with a geo EXIF tag. But thank you for one more demonstration that even the HN crowd can’t reliably give or deny informed consent here.
- lapcat 2y ago
  And how, pray tell, do geotagged images magically get into your Photos library? I actually couldn't get Photos address search to work right in my testing before writing my previous comment, even with a geotagged photo that I just took. So I'm not sure whether I have some setting disabled that prevents it. The only match was via character recognition of a printed form that I had photographed. To be clear, I meant that it was a nonissue for me, because I don't geotag my photos (except in that one test). Whether it's an issue for other people, I don't know. One of the problems with iPhone lockdown is that it's a lot more difficult to investigate how things work technically than on the Mac.
  - heartbreak 2y ago
    > And how, pray tell, do geotagged images magically get into your Photos library? By saving them from any source other than the camera app you’ve configured to not use geo-tagging.
    - lapcat 2y ago
      I don't do that. My Photos library contains camera snapshots and screenshots, nothing else.
      - heartbreak 2y ago
        The point still stands. That’s how geo-tagged images get in your photos, and the search function still works. For what it’s worth, I’m surprised that you never save photos to your phone that you didn’t take yourself. Do people not send you interesting pictures? Pictures of yourself?
        lapcat 2y ago
        I don't actually use my phone for much. Taking photos, making phone calls. I'm not the kind of person who lives on their phone. I live on my laptop (which has Location Services disabled entirely). I don't even use Photos app on Mac anymore. They've ruined it compared to the old iPhoto. I just keep my photos in folders in Finder.
        penguinburglar 2y ago
        [flagged]
        deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
      - asadotzler 2y ago
        you started out suggesting it wasn't possible and when presented with a common case showing it was not only possible but likely, you moved the goal posts and now say "well, I don't do that." Weak sauce.
- j45 2y ago
  It's all about soundbite replies. The issue is much deeper for anyone who has remotely worked with EXIF data for any creative or professional work they do.

hn3er1q 2y ago

> Do you consider this feature to be a violation of your privacy, requiring an opt-in? I suppose in some sense it is, as it a reverse-geo lookup service, but it's also no where near to the front in the location privacy war. Cell phone providers basically know your exact position at all times when you have your phone on you, credit card companies know basically everything, cars track driving directly, etc. etc. I can see why some people would be up in arms but for me this one doesn't feel like missing the forest for the trees, it feels like missing the forest for the leaves.

avianlyric 2y ago
I very much agree with your position. There are legitimate questions to be asked about this feature being opt-in, although we may find that you implicitly opt-in if you enable Apple Intelligence or similar. But the argument that this specific feature represents some new beachhead in some great war against privacy strikes me as little more that clickbate hyperbole. If Apple really wanted to track people’s locations, it would be trivial for them to do so, without all this cloak and dagger nonsense people seem to come up with. Equally, is a state entity wanted to track your location (or even track people’s locations at scale), there’s a myriad of trivially easy ways for them to do so, without resorting to forcing Apple to spy on their customers via complex computer vision landmark lookup system.

doctorpangloss 2y ago

You’re right. But: Anyone in IT or tech, thinking deeply about the raw facts. They know it always boils down to trust, not technology. The interesting thing is that Apple has created a cathedral of seemingly objective sexy technical details that feel like security. But since it’s all trust, feelings matter! So my answer is, if it feels like a privacy violation, it is. Your technical comparison will be more persuasive if you presented it in Computer Modern in a white paper, or if you are an important Substack author or reply guy, or maybe take a cue from the shawarma guy on Valencia Street and do a hunger strike while comparing two ways to get location info.

benwaffle 2y ago
Apple chose to implement things like OHTTP and homomorphic encryption when they could easily have done without it. Doesn't that count for something?
- j45 2y ago
  Nope. It's still taking the user's data away without informing them, and saying trust us we super good encrypted it. Apple is building a location database, for free, from user's photos and saying it's anonymized. It's not a service I want, nor one I authorize. Nor are my photos licensed to Apple to get that information from me. Encryption is only good relative to computational power to break it available to the many, or the few. Computational power usually seems always available in 10-20-30 years to generally break encryption for the average person, as unimaginably hard it seems in the present. I don't have interest in taking any technical bait from the conversation at hand. Determined groups with resources could find ways.. This results in no security or encryption.
  - avianlyric 2y ago
    > Apple is building a location database, for free, from user's photos and saying it's anonymized. Where on earth did you get that from? The photos app is sending an 8bit embedding for its lookup query, how are they going to build a location database from that? Even if they were sending entire photos, how do you imagine someone builds a location database from that? You still need something to figure out what the image is, and if you already have that, why would you need to build it again? > Encryption is only good relative to computational power to break it available to the many, or the few. > Determined groups with resources could find ways.. This results in no security or encryption. Tell me, do you sell tin foil hats as a side hustle or something? If this is your view on encryption why are you worried about a silly photos app figuring out what landmarks are in your photos. You basically believe that it’s impossible for digital privacy of any variety is effectively impossible, and that you also believe this is a meaningful threat to “normal” people. The only way to meet your criteria for safe privacy is to ensue all forms of digital communication (which would include Hacker News FYI). So either you’re knowingly making disingenuous hyperbolic arguments, you’re a complete hypocrite, or you like to live “dangerously”.

j45 2y ago

It's a complete violation if it's a new or changed setting from the default state of the user not having it possible. Something to consider - location is geo-encoded already into photos and doesn't need this uploaded to Apple servers. Searching can be done locally on device for location. Apple goes as far as to offer a setting to allow the user to share photos and remove the geocoding from it. Offering a new feature is opt-in. Unfortunately, against my better wishes, this only erodes trust and confidence in Apple that if this is happening visibly, what could be happening that is unknown.

hamandcheese 2y ago

> To do that requires the Photos app to take the lat/long of a photos location, and do a reverse-geo lookup to get a human understandable address. It seems trivially possible to do this in a more privacy preserving way: geocode the search query and filter photos locally. No idea how Apple implements it though.