4 ms·

Opt in doesn't work, it never did. The vast majority (>95%) of users does not understand what those pop-ups say, seems fundamentally incapable of reading them,

Opt in doesn't work, it never did. The vast majority (>95%) of users does not understand what those pop-ups say, seems fundamentally incapable of reading them, and either always accepts, always rejects, or always clicks the more visually-appealing button. Try observing a family member who is not in tech and not in the professional managerial class, and ask them what pop-up they just dismissed and why. It's one of the best lessons in the interactions between tech and privacy you can get.

Longhanks 2y ago
Well, then >95% of users won't be using $FEATURE. Simple as that. The fact that users for some reason no not consent to $FEATURE the way corporations/shareholders would want them to does not give anyone the right to stop asking for consent in the first place.
- zxcvbnm69 2y ago
  [dead]
deaddodo 2y ago
[flagged]
- saagarjha 2y ago
  If 6.99 billion people cannot give informed consent on something, you have more problems than just showing the dialog.
  - deaddodo 2y ago
    Certainly, which is 100% a discussion about how to better present information. It still doesn't change the fundamental right to consent.
- LPisGood 2y ago
  Most people treat _sex_ very differently than _data sharing_ to the point that the comparison doesn’t really hold up for me.
  - deaddodo 2y ago
    We're not talking about either, we're talking about consent.
  - kQq9oHeAz6wLLS 2y ago
    Sadly, sites like Tinder suggest those two objects are, in fact, treated very much the same way.
- aprilthird2021 2y ago
  Except that, still, to this day, most sexual consent is assumed, not explicit, even in the highest brow circles where most people are pro-explicit-sexual-consent. The same way, most tech privacy consent is assumed, not explicit. Users dismiss popups because they want to use the app and don't care what you do with the data. Maybe later they will care, but not in the moment...
  - deaddodo 2y ago
    > Except that, still, to this day, most sexual consent is assumed, not explicit Did you miss my sarcastic little requote blurb that stated exactly that? Or do you normally rephrase the exact same point with added ad hominem attacks, and somehow frame it as a counterpoint? > The same way, most tech privacy consent is assumed, not explicit. And yet, you still have a right to it. In both instances.
    - aprilthird2021 2y ago
      What is the ad hominem attack here? Anyways, the "right" you have to explicit sexual consent is not really there. In that, you cannot go to court and say "I said no" and get any meaningful damages or a conviction without other evidence. Similarly, courts treat these popups as essentially unreadable and you cannot go to court and say "They clicked "Allow"" and get away with anything unreasonable.
jermaustin1 2y ago
> Try observing a family member who is not in tech This is everyone, it is universal, I've met many people "in tech" who also click the most "visually appealing" button because they are trying to dismiss everything in their way to get to the action they are trying to complete. The microcosm that is HN users might not just dismiss things at the 95%+ rate, but that is because we are fed, every day, how our data is being misappropriated ate every level. I think outside of these tiny communities, even people in tech, are just clicking the pretty button and making the dialog go away.
mihaaly 2y ago
Opt in works! If you do not want it (and that is >90% of people, who never asked for it, never requested it, but was forced upon them these 'enriched' lies and exposure to corporate greed).
jasoneckert 2y ago
When looked at from another angle, opt-in does work. By adding that extra step forcing users to be aware of (and optionally decline) the vendors collection of personal data, it adds a disincentive for collecting the data in the first place. In other words, opt-in can be thought of as a way to encourage vendors to change their behaviour. Consumers who don't see an opt-in will eventually know that the vendor isn't collecting their information compared to others and trust the product more.
SamInTheShell 2y ago
Informed consent is sexy. In the Apple ecosystem, we’re literally paying customers. This is ridiculous. This line you parroted is ridiculous. This needs to stop.
spookie 2y ago
The issue really isn't opt-in itself but how the option is presented. I agree that a lot of people don't read, or attempt to understand the UI being presented to them in any meaningful manner. It really is frustrating seeing that happen. But, think about the "colorful" option you briefly mentioned. Dark patterns have promoted this kind of behaviour from popups. The whole interaction pattern has been forever tainted. You need to present it in another way.
jchw 2y ago
As much as I hate cookie consent dialogs everywhere, the fact is that it is clearly working. Some companies are going as far as to force users to pay money in order to be able to opt out of data collection. If it wasn't so cumbersome to opt-out, I reckon the numbers for opt-out would be even higher. And if companies weren't so concerned about the small portion of users that opt-out, they wouldn't have invested in finding so many different dark patterns to make it hard. It is definitely true that most users don't know what they're opting out of, they just understand that they have basically nothing to gain anyway, so why opt-in? But actually, that's totally fine and working as intended. To be fair to the end user, Apple has done something extremely complicated here, and it's going to be extremely hard for anyone except for an expert to understand it. A privacy-conscious user could make the best call by just opting out of any of these features. An everyday user might simply choose to not opt-in because they don't really care about the feature in the first place: I suspect that's the real reason why many people opt-out in the first place, you don't need to understand privacy risks to know you don't give a shit about the feature anyway.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
hamandcheese 2y ago
Opt in works great, pop-up dialogues do not.

Longhanks 2y ago

Well, then >95% of users won't be using $FEATURE. Simple as that. The fact that users for some reason no not consent to $FEATURE the way corporations/shareholders would want them to does not give anyone the right to stop asking for consent in the first place.

zxcvbnm69 2y ago
[dead]

deaddodo 2y ago

[flagged]

saagarjha 2y ago
If 6.99 billion people cannot give informed consent on something, you have more problems than just showing the dialog.
- deaddodo 2y ago
  Certainly, which is 100% a discussion about how to better present information. It still doesn't change the fundamental right to consent.
LPisGood 2y ago
Most people treat _sex_ very differently than _data sharing_ to the point that the comparison doesn’t really hold up for me.
- deaddodo 2y ago
  We're not talking about either, we're talking about consent.
- kQq9oHeAz6wLLS 2y ago
  Sadly, sites like Tinder suggest those two objects are, in fact, treated very much the same way.
aprilthird2021 2y ago
Except that, still, to this day, most sexual consent is assumed, not explicit, even in the highest brow circles where most people are pro-explicit-sexual-consent. The same way, most tech privacy consent is assumed, not explicit. Users dismiss popups because they want to use the app and don't care what you do with the data. Maybe later they will care, but not in the moment...
- deaddodo 2y ago
  > Except that, still, to this day, most sexual consent is assumed, not explicit Did you miss my sarcastic little requote blurb that stated exactly that? Or do you normally rephrase the exact same point with added ad hominem attacks, and somehow frame it as a counterpoint? > The same way, most tech privacy consent is assumed, not explicit. And yet, you still have a right to it. In both instances.
  - aprilthird2021 2y ago
    What is the ad hominem attack here? Anyways, the "right" you have to explicit sexual consent is not really there. In that, you cannot go to court and say "I said no" and get any meaningful damages or a conviction without other evidence. Similarly, courts treat these popups as essentially unreadable and you cannot go to court and say "They clicked "Allow"" and get away with anything unreasonable.

jermaustin1 2y ago

> Try observing a family member who is not in tech This is everyone, it is universal, I've met many people "in tech" who also click the most "visually appealing" button because they are trying to dismiss everything in their way to get to the action they are trying to complete. The microcosm that is HN users might not just dismiss things at the 95%+ rate, but that is because we are fed, every day, how our data is being misappropriated ate every level. I think outside of these tiny communities, even people in tech, are just clicking the pretty button and making the dialog go away.

mihaaly 2y ago

Opt in works! If you do not want it (and that is >90% of people, who never asked for it, never requested it, but was forced upon them these 'enriched' lies and exposure to corporate greed).

jasoneckert 2y ago

When looked at from another angle, opt-in does work. By adding that extra step forcing users to be aware of (and optionally decline) the vendors collection of personal data, it adds a disincentive for collecting the data in the first place. In other words, opt-in can be thought of as a way to encourage vendors to change their behaviour. Consumers who don't see an opt-in will eventually know that the vendor isn't collecting their information compared to others and trust the product more.

SamInTheShell 2y ago

Informed consent is sexy. In the Apple ecosystem, we’re literally paying customers. This is ridiculous. This line you parroted is ridiculous. This needs to stop.

spookie 2y ago

The issue really isn't opt-in itself but how the option is presented. I agree that a lot of people don't read, or attempt to understand the UI being presented to them in any meaningful manner. It really is frustrating seeing that happen. But, think about the "colorful" option you briefly mentioned. Dark patterns have promoted this kind of behaviour from popups. The whole interaction pattern has been forever tainted. You need to present it in another way.

jchw 2y ago

As much as I hate cookie consent dialogs everywhere, the fact is that it is clearly working. Some companies are going as far as to force users to pay money in order to be able to opt out of data collection. If it wasn't so cumbersome to opt-out, I reckon the numbers for opt-out would be even higher. And if companies weren't so concerned about the small portion of users that opt-out, they wouldn't have invested in finding so many different dark patterns to make it hard. It is definitely true that most users don't know what they're opting out of, they just understand that they have basically nothing to gain anyway, so why opt-in? But actually, that's totally fine and working as intended. To be fair to the end user, Apple has done something extremely complicated here, and it's going to be extremely hard for anyone except for an expert to understand it. A privacy-conscious user could make the best call by just opting out of any of these features. An everyday user might simply choose to not opt-in because they don't really care about the feature in the first place: I suspect that's the real reason why many people opt-out in the first place, you don't need to understand privacy risks to know you don't give a shit about the feature anyway.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

hamandcheese 2y ago

Opt in works great, pop-up dialogues do not.