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BioTerrorism Will Save Your Life with the 4 Thieves Vinegar Collective [video]
- aszantu 2y agoThanks! Will look into it later!
- ZYbCRq22HbJ2y7 2y agoA few of many related past discussions: - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41474080 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41474080 - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17629436 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17629436 - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15467379 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15467379 - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29807454 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29807454 - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27661637 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27661637
- dennis_jeeves2 2y agoI like the spirit of what they are doing.
- Metacelsus 2y agohttps://www.science.org/content/blog-post/anarchist-drugs-again https://www.science.org/content/blog-post/anarchist-drugs-ag... >"Our ultimate hope is to get to a point where we're no longer necessary because the notion of DIY medicine, no matter anybody's opinion of it is common enough that if it comes up in conversation, someone can say 'Oh I'm just going to 3D print a replacement'". >No, no, that is not going to be happening any time soon, or (frankly) at all. I could go one for another couple of thousand words about why that is, about solvents, waste disposal, availability of starting materials, purification, analytical data, formulations, particle size, excipients, and plenty of other topics that complicate that vision enormously. But really, why bother? The people who believe this stuff when they hear it will not be persuaded, because I'm obviously a Big Pharma Shill. Perhaps it will be worthwhile to just note that anyone who actually knows about drug synthesis and manufacture just rolls their eyes when this sort of thing comes up, rather than shaking with fear that their livelihood is under attack. It's like saying that you're going to make your own aluminum foil. >But I'm sure that no matter what, Four Thieves will continue to make a big noise at biohacker events and the like, giving exciting presentations about how they're changing the world. But it's all. . .a joke. A show. Performance art. A cartoon. I hope they're enjoying themselves.
- borski 2y agoThis is a tone-deaf response that essentially boils down to “they’re small and it still isn’t trivial to do, so they don’t matter.” This reminds me very much of the comments on HN when Dropbox first launched, swearing that nobody would ever need it because everyone can just do what they’ve already always done.
- ceejayoz 2y agoIt’s the opposite of the Dropbox comment, which asserted it was already easy to do. This criticism asserts it’s too hard.
- borski 2y agoSorry, the implication was that it’s “easy to do” insofar as simply getting it from a pharma manufacturer. The problem is getting the drugs you need is not easy to do, and while 4 thieves isn’t “easy” yet, it actually is way easier than arguing with insurance, needing a PA, getting a letter of medical necessity, only to still get rejected, and then having to argue with your state insurance board through an IMR. That’s what I meant. All it takes is one or a few people to start doing this for friends, and it begins to spread. And that says nothing of when Shkreli or anyone else jacks up the price of an important life-saving medication simply because, well, they can.
- astrange 2y ago> All it takes is one or a few people to start doing this for friends, and it begins to spread. Has this in fact happened? If the drugs are "actually" cheap and easy to make, I suggest importing them from India. If they aren't "actually" easy to make, you aren't going to successfully make them.
- borski 2y agoYes, it has. Abortion access is one example.
- georgeburdell 2y agoI’m put off by their website. It seems too well crafted for their main focus to be on their stated goal of giving individuals the tools to treat themselves. The actual aim seems closer to marketing or perhaps influencing public discourse on the subject https://fourthievesvinegar.org/ https://fourthievesvinegar.org/
- saagarjha 2y ago…which would be one way of giving individuals those tools, no?
- mandmandam 2y agoI would imagine that there are many designers out there who would be very happy to contribute to a project like this on a volunteer basis. Also, purposely making your website look less "well crafted" strikes me as quite cynical (and almost certainly counterproductive). > The actual aim seems closer to marketing or perhaps influencing public discourse on the subject A worthy aim, no? ... How much do giant drug corps spend on marketing? Last I remember, it was more than they spend on drug development; in the tens of billions of dollars annually. In this context, quibbling that a website seems too nice seems remarkably misguided. Finally, considering how much effort has been put into helping people actually make these things - far more than anyone else! - I think trying to redefine their aim to be just marketing is deeply unfair.
- Hasu 2y ago> It seems too well crafted for their main focus to be on their stated goal of giving individuals the tools to treat themselves. Is this how you think about everything? Do you go to a restaurant with nice chairs and think, "The food here must suck, they spend too much money on the furniture"?
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- georgeburdell 2y agoWhen it’s a small operation, yes I get suspicious that they’re not focusing on their stated mission with their limited resources. Also, ambience is part of the sensory pleasure of a restaurant.
- HarryHirsch 2y agoThe whole show feels like the financial literacy courses that are being offered by credit card companies. The system is stacked against the individual, we need to keep the notion of "personal responsibility" alive. Do we want this future: https://www.nytimes.com/2024/12/26/world/americas/mexican-cartels-test-fentanyl.html https://www.nytimes.com/2024/12/26/world/americas/mexican-ca... I know people who cook their own medicine, but they are trained as chemists or microbiologists and have access to lab facilities. If Joe Sixpack stated doing his own, it'd look like so: https://www.nytimes.com/2024/12/26/world/americas/mexican-cartels-test-fentanyl.html https://www.nytimes.com/2024/12/26/world/americas/mexican-ca... We know that niche stuff like Daraprim or trientine is easy to produce because it used to be cheap before the financializers got there. I'm not yet convinced that the solution is to cook your own, one should lean on the government to have a national facility.
- portaouflop 2y agoI’m not an US citizen but it seems that people in the US just die because they don’t get the medicine they need to juice up profits. I’m sure the coming gov won’t improve that. In that situation I can empathise with people who “cook their own”. I am sure you would do the same if the alternative is agonising slow death. There are many countries - for example Cuba - that can’t rely on these systems - they need to cook their own. Is your proposal to rely on the government really realistic in those scenarios?
- bdndndndbve 2y agoIt takes a diversity of tactics to overcome an adversary as entrenched as the pharmaceutical industry. I don't believe in their wild "one day everyone will manufacture their own medication" BS, but it's valuable to keep this knowledge in the public consciousness. If for no other reason to remind us that Big Pharma is gouging patients for life-saving drugs that are cheap and simple to manufacture.
- HarryHirsch 2y agoWith certain niche medications like trientine it used to be a small manufacturer, the scale of a man with a garage, who had the FDA registration and sold the stuff for a price that allowed him to make a living. That worked fine, until investment banking got there, and raised the price to whatever the market would bear. Those days are gone, like the old web. Not sure, if the DIY movement can put enough pressure on the drug cartel to drop prices. Then again, university librarians had been complaining about Elsevier since the 1990's, but nothing got done until Sci-Hub appeared. That's the hammer argument against Crito.
- 8bitbeep 2y ago> We all know that custom, hand-made, artisan-crafted, boutique tools are always better than something factory made. Right. We all know the best chips in the world are made by local artisan silicon-etchers. None of that TSMC pasteurized crap. You simply can't beat a 1nm brush and a steady hand. We all know this industrial revolution thing was a mistake.
- portaouflop 2y agoSure if you apply enough mental gymnastics you can invalidate any claim. Good faith reading of his argument would be that a custom, artisan crafted hammer is better than a factory made one. I can’t say if that is true or not but using chips as an example- probably the most complex man made thing- is bad faith argumentation
- NeutralCrane 2y agoGiven that the application here is molecular chemistry aimed at targeting human biology, one of the few problems equally complex as computer chips, I would say their analogy is far more appropriate than a hammer.
- fumeux_fume 2y agoThat specific sentence is making an analogy using handmade tools. A hammer is an ideal example of a tool. You would expect to find a hammer in a toolbox. A computer chip is not an ideal example of a tool. You would not expect to find a computer chip in a toolbox.
- fragmede 2y agoLaser level, boroscope, camera stud-finder, thermal camera, laser tape measure, multimeter, battery management system on a lithum-something battery pack for power tools; those are all gonna have IC chips in them and it wouldn't be unreasonable to find them in a professional's toolbox.
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- barfolomew 2y agoJesse, we need to cook.
- tqi 2y ago[dead]
- Aurornis 2y agoA lot of people miss the fact that this is more art project than practical solution. It’s meant to make a statement, but they have cherry-picked some extremely simple drugs to synthesize to make their point. I have some online friends who met through a forum for their rare condition. The forum they’re in had a splinter group dedicated to getting companies in China to synthesize experimental drugs for them that they couldn’t secure through normal channels, either because they hadn’t been approved yet or because they were expensive and off-label so nobody would even prescribe them. Even contracting with professional chemical synthesis operations in foreign countries turned out to be more difficult than they imagined. Several companies would take their deposit, then refund part of it after several months because they could never get the synthesis to work properly. They received one batch that tested as being so impure that it was useless. Projects like this convince people that all drugs are actually really easy to make, when in reality this project has carefully selected the most simple examples to make that misleading point.
- germandiago 2y agoThe story probably has two sides, as you mention. However, I think everyone should be in charge of their own decisions, including taking not approved drugs, without being considered criminals or similar, under their strict own responsibility.
- abduhl 2y agoThis question is pedantic but I’ll ask it anyways: is it actually illegal to take an unapproved drug? Sale of, marketing for, distribution, etc. all might be (are?) illegal but is TAKING an unapproved drug illegal? I can’t believe it is, there’s an entire industry that peddles nootropics and supplements. My understanding has always been that if you can get it (however that is), you can take it without issue (although you obviously might have broken a possession law at some point).
- soulofmischief 2y agoDepending on the drug, it can be illegal for certain professionals to create, procure or otherwise transfer possession or sell it to you. It's not even illegal to consume heroin or crack in normal circumstances, it's only the possession itself which is illegal. Depends on the state, but unscheduled drugs don't typically have possession laws. However, if you use an illegal method to acquire them, and in some case all realistic methods are illegal, you can get in trouble for that.
- righthand 2y agoThis but with cleaning products and beauty products. People should be empowered to clean their living environment without buying tubs and tubs of plastic. Electrolyzed water should be bigger.
- nozzlegear 2y agoI'm reminded of the King of the Hill episode where Peggy publishes advice in her newspaper column telling her readers to mix ammonia and bleach for better cleaning, not realizing it creates toxic chloramine gas.
- righthand 2y agoThere are consumer grade systems that will safely electrolyze.[0] Though I do love a good King of the Hill episode every once in a while. [0] https://www.forceofnatureclean.com/ https://www.forceofnatureclean.com/
- daveguy 2y agoI guess they're not so concerned with the "oops, poison" aspect of manufacturing drugs. Or ethics driven testing of drugs for safety and efficacy. Seems like a great way to fk up and kill people. Also, they say compounding pharmacies are illegal, but they're not. Not in the US or Germany. There's one down the street from me and my neighbor was a compounding pharmacist.
- toss1 2y agoOr, as with Thalidomide, the formulation pathway also happens to make a 'left-handed' version of a drug which turns works great, but the opposite chirality causes horrible birth defects (as in kids with brain damage or deformed hands & feet basically attached to shoulders and hips, and more). [0] And this was with production and testing by major pharm companies. I'd be all over home production or brew-kits for users or compounding pharmacists to save lives or quality of life. But damn, the more complex synthesis pathways have potential for insanely serious 'bugs', and the consequences aren't just a software crash, they can be life-altering or life-ending. With fully informed consent, still works for me. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thalidomide https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thalidomide
- spookie 2y agoHonestly, in the EU it's quite common for pharmacies to make compounded drugs. At least in my country ALL pharmacies are required to have the equipment and staff required to do so. I would be surprised if it wasn't the case in others.
- gcr 2y agoThis could get super interesting with my country’s political situation. I could see two particular groups getting into med production: - Pregnant women who need abortion medication - Trans people who need hormones With finasteride and puberty blockers/HRT being criminalized, a lot of people in the above categories are turning to black market / DIY solutions.
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- aSanchezStern 2y agoI was talking to a French trans academic at a conference recently, and apparently there is a large community of trans people that make their own hormones from cheap precursors you can buy online. All secondhand obviously so I don't know the details but this is definitely a thing.
- DrillShopper 2y agoIt is absurdly easy as none of the precursors are controlled substances. Testosterone is a controlled substance but estrogen isn't.
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- 4gotunameagain 2y agoAh yes, nothing screams of freedom more than brewing your moonshine hormones and diying an extremely serious medical procedure without a doctor and outside of the medical system. Gotta love the USA!
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- cjbgkagh 2y agoI’ve procured substantial quantities of gray market (not illegal yet) medication ‘for research purposes’ and can probably safely say that it has indeed saved my life. While the medication was purchased the protocol was of my own design. Like many people with chronic conditions (LongCovid/Chronic Fatigue) I’ve long given up on doctors and only use them when I have to get a prescription. A lot of what I used are the human encoded bio regulator peptides mainly studied by Prof Khavinson and largely ignored in the West. Bacteriophages are another interesting medical technique ignored by the west. These days I think GLP-1A (ozempic) etc also help with auto-immune conditions so I’m confident there will be a lot of off label use at lower doses and I’m sure there already is. I haven’t had time to watch the video yet but Low Dose Naltrexone is a perfect case study of an effective medication dying due to lack of funding and being revived by patient groups. Naltrexone is a generic so there is no money in making it a treatment. For a few years there was a shortage of modafinil so I looked into making it myself. It’s not too hard, totally doable. As technology improves it’ll get even easier. Especially going from a low yield batch chemistry to a higher yield lab on a chip continuous chemistry. For more complex stuff there are micro-bioreactors to use recombinant DNA. It’s pretty cost effective to send off samples for analysis. I’m not confident enough to use any of my own synthesized meds, at this stage it’s just a hobby. Procuring a custom batch of meds from Asia can be as cheep as $10K so patient groups sometimes organize group buys. Because the turnaround is so quick and there are plenty of volunteers the patient groups can get results much faster than the medical researchers.
- ba12367fgh 2y agoCould you please share more details on any Long Covid protocols you feel have been helpful?
- cjbgkagh 2y agoModafinil 100mg morning and Amitriptyline 75mg at night helps with dysautonomia, though modafinil can exacerbate gut issues. Using weaker ligands helps with working with the natural cycles of the body instead of against it. Low Dose Naltrexone. A fairly high dose of TUDCA and DIM. DIM (3,3'-Diindolylmethane) is a relatively non-toxic selective AhR modulator. Ipamorelin + ModGRF. VIP peptide. A fairly low dose Semaglutide of 0.5mg after a year on it where I started at 0.05mg - not sure if the dose has plateaued, we will see. Elimination of sugar from diet. Resistance exercise and no aerobic exercise due to PEM. I have a strong genetic predisposition (hEDS) so I was impacted by Long Covid worse than most.
- NeutralCrane 2y agoWhile a noble cause, this seems like a prime example of “techies convince themselves they are smarter than everyone and they can solve every single problem with JavaScript”. Which is why, when you actually look at the project, it’s a website, instructions for a 3D printed version of the chemistry kit I bought my kid for Christmas for $40, several software suites all listed as “pre-alpha” (read: not working), and instructions for turning their logo into merch like stickers. This comes off more like an art project at best, or a garage-band version of Theranos at worst. I hate being cynical about something like this. I want there to be affordable health solutions for people. But this comes off so naive and self-aggrandizing that it makes me want to actually get out of tech and into a field where people are more grounded. Something with fewer religious fanatics, God complexes, and delusions of grandeur.
- __MatrixMan__ 2y ago> it makes me want to actually get out of tech and into a field where people are more grounded. Something with fewer religious fanatics, God complexes, and delusions of grandeur. I've been having this thought a lot lately. Do you have any thoughts about which field you might transition to, if you did this? I've been considering bioinformatics, so far the classes have been pretty fun, but I haven't yet gotten close enough to the day-to-day work to know if it's any less toxic or just toxic in new and unpleasant ways.
- scarecrowbob 2y ago"I hate being cynical about something like this. I want there to be affordable health solutions for people." Then do it- that's the point of the art piece, in a very literal way. Everybody fixates on the aesthetics around this kind of thing, but if it moves you to action than it's working. So let it work, learn what you need to learn to help folks in the ways that you feel this project fails. And then you won't have the cynical feeling that you don't like.
- cess11 2y agoThe point is to make it look cool and inspire people to try to create new modes of production, because that's likely to be important in the future. It's not to replicate 'big pharma' capitalist production.
- HarryHirsch 2y agoIt's not to replicate 'big pharma' capitalist production. It's not? Elsevier finally relented when universities could finally cancel their subscriptions because librarians could direct people to Sci-Hub.
- epgui 2y agoI’ve studied biochem for 12 years. FWIW, I think the level of dunning-kruggery here is super impressive.
- tptacek 2y agoRecently, from Derek Lowe, on this project: https://www.science.org/content/blog-post/anarchist-drugs-again https://www.science.org/content/blog-post/anarchist-drugs-ag... "It's like saying that you're going to make your own aluminum foil."
- RockRobotRock 2y agoUs tech people really need to stop with the whole “I’m good at writing code so I must be good at X too” thing
- cbxjksls 2y agoYou don't need to make aluminum foil at home because it's cheaper and higher quality to buy the mass produced version from Walmart. For medications (and anything where artificial scarcity is created with IP), it can be cheaper to create the product at home instead of buying it. If homemade quality is 'good enough', that's a reasonable option. For comparison, I make my own sauerkraut. The stuff at Walmart is fine, but it's cheaper and higher quality to make at home. The same logic applies to lots of software.
- jrflowers 2y agoAnybody interested in taking drugs they’ve cooked up should familiarize themselves with MPTP/MPP+ https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/MPTP https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/MPTP
- __MatrixMan__ 2y agoThat looks like yet another reason to stay the heck away from opiates.
- ryao 2y ago> We all know that custom, hand-made, artisan-crafted, boutique tools are always better than something factory made. A guitar, a wood chisel, a chef's knife, a built racing engine, a firearm, a suit, a pair of shoes. Given that this is so well-known, and so universally understood, it's peculiar at best that this is not seen by most people when it comes to medicine. It is however also true. I have seen this sentiment expressed, but I have yet to see any real evidence for it. A factory can ensure precision and consistency at a level that those hand crafting things never could. For all of the things listed, I would rather have factory made versions since I know they are likely made precisely to a specification and deviations from that specification likely make things worse, rather than better. If that claim about hand made items being better were true, there would be a market for hand made CPUs, yet there is none, since hand made objects can not reach that level of precision. That is a major reason why society transitioned to factories for production in the first place.
- galleywest200 2y agoIn regards to objects like the guitar listed in the quote, there is a draw to how a hand-crafted item can be _unique_ due to slight imperfections. This can range from just slight imperfections in the wood to things such as believing your guitar has a unique sound. Sure the factory guitar may sound "perfect", but the only guitar that sounds like this handmade guitar is this handmade guitar.
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- ryao 2y agoI would not consider that evidence for the items being better, but it does explain why some people are drawn to hand made items. I consider such items to be worse and not just because they are objectively worse. Items break and are lost. When you become emotionally attached to an object such as a unique imperfect guitar, you are guaranteed to have sorrow when it is lost (e.g. in a fire). In any case, the original premise was that such items are better and thus hand made medicine is better too. However, you do not want variations in medicine. During the pandemic, my doctor had a suspicion that the dosages of certain drugs had been lowered by the manufacturers versus what was on the label. That posed a problem for him because he could not properly treat patients if he had no clue what was actually in the pills filling his prescriptions. His suspicion had stemmed from seeing a trend among his patients where the efficacy was dropping in a way consistent with the dosages being lowered, although he was not sure by how much. If he had tried to compensate by prescribing larger dosages, when the manufacturers began to get things right again, his patients would have been taking overdoses. His solution was to switch them to alternative drugs and hope that the manufacturers of those drugs were producing pills that matched their labels. This is why precision is very important when it comes to medicine and the last thing anyone needs are imperfections in drug manufacturing.
- narrator 2y agoI imagine with advanced robotics, you'll just get the AI to output a synthesis and put it through your at home chem lab with precise pipetting and all that. It will also help clean up and handle any nasty reagents.
- ugjka 2y agoI loved the talk but some kind of reds flags went off in my mind when he couldn't answer about heavy metal contamination but i'm no chemist so i have no clue either
- maeln 2y agoTaken from the description: > Governments have criminalized the practice of managing your own health. Despite the fact that for most of human history bodily autonomy, and self-managed health was the norm, it is now required that most aspects of your health must be mediated by an institution deputized by the state. Taking those rights back for yourself is then labeled "BioTerrorism". So be it. Let's learn how. This is, in most country, false. You can absolutely decide on your own to mix up some chemical and then take it (you might just be held accountable for the result, i.e, not coverage from your health insurance). There is some exception related to the consumption of narcotics, but, what most law, not government (its an important distinction in a democracy), make illegal is the distribution (and the intent of) of drugs without the proper licence. And there is very, very good reasons for it. Drugs are no joke. Some ingredients needs to be very precisely dosed, at very low concentration, requiring special tooling and precaution, or you might reach a toxic dosage very, very quickly and kill someone (or permanently damage some organs). Then, there is the issue of quack doctor and quack medicine. While the current system is far from perfect (see: the opioid crisis in the US), it still give legal repercussion for people who sale snake oil, potentialy dangerous ones, and who prey on already often desperate victim. The other thing is, the law also prevent buying some chemical without the proper licence. And again, there is usually good reasons for it. Either because they make it easy to synthetise drugs that society has judged detrimental (again, narcotics like meth, heroin, ...), or because they make explosives (wasn't it sulfuric acid that could turn a lot of stuff into energetics ?). And for the most part, theses laws where written in blood. We can debate the specifics of their implementations (the war on drugs, the free access to birth control, how to allow for experimentation, ...), but the overall spirit of those laws is, I believe, sadly very needed in our current world. Obviously there is also the patent issue, but it's a whole lot of debate in itself.
- __MatrixMan__ 2y agoIt's quite difficult to know if there's a good reason for a prohibition, vs whether it's just there to protect somebody's monopoly. In a healthier society there'd be a smooth gradient between the layman and the professional such that B.S. prohibitions would be identified and removed by informed subsets of the population. But instead we have this very crisp boundary between the in-the-know and the clueless, and to be in-the-know is so expensive that one can't afford to be in-the-know while also not being on somebody's payroll--those tend to be the same somebody's who have a monopoly to protect, so the clueless stay clueless and the capable stay under control. There's a lot of criticism in adjacent threads for these guys having cherry-picked the easy examples, but given the circumstances I think that that's precisely what we ought to be doing: Identify the cases where taking control of your drugs is relatively easy, teach people to do it, and level up gradually until that set of cases starts growing. We may never get to the point where we're making everything at home, but if we don't at least take a shot at the easy ones then we'll never know where the reasonable equilibrium point lies (i.e. the point beyond which you should leave it to a corporation). As it stands we're letting that point be decided by people who have a conflict of interest in doing so.
- sergioisidoro 2y ago"Everyone can do sterile work", I mean some people can't even boil an egg. There is a big sample bias here. The community of hackers is generally intelligent and curious. The laws in place were not necessarily made with them in mind, but for people who will take homeopathic remedies, use energy crystals. Maybe if you're smart enough to avoid detection and navigate the legal hurdles, that is the acid test (heh) for the competences and diligence these things require...
- Cartoxy 2y agoA Month or Two ago i tried to update the Savaldi / Sofosbuvir wikipedia by adding a section under "Controversial" but was told it was borderline vandalism to the website, which i found was a extremely bizarre response. I've copied it verbatim it below. """DIY Synthesis""" At DEF CON 32, Mixæl Swan Laufer, a representative of the Four Thieves Vinegar Collective, presented a talk titled "Eradicating Hepatitis C with BioTerrorism." The presentation argued that advancements in open-source tools and chemistry enable individuals to synthesize certain medications, such as Sovaldi, at home, potentially bypassing high pharmaceutical costs. During the talk, Laufer demonstrated tools and techniques used by the collective to synthesize pharmaceuticals, showcasing examples of the medications created. To illustrate the efficacy and accessibility of the process, he consumed a dose of Sovaldi onstage, despite not having Hepatitis C, as a symbolic gesture of the drug's claimed safety."""
- mouse_ 2y agoYou have to consider the greater context. Wikipedia runs on a tight budget right now -- they don't need to go upsetting pharmaceutical giants. Gilead could totally sink them with frivolous lawsuits, even if wiki is in the right. Your commit is dangerous to Wikipedia, therefore seen as "borderline vandalism". I'm sure the mod didn't want to go into greater detail than that because the reasoning is not fun for anybody. Safety first, unfortunately.
- NoMoreNicksLeft 2y agoAnyone have a working link for this? It's dead.
- PaywallBuster 2y agoThey're also doing silver based solution drops that you apply on your teeth once a year to prevent cavities https://fourthievesvinegar.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/09/tooth-seal-instructions.pdf https://fourthievesvinegar.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/09/to...
- Executor 2y agoDownvoted because this video promotes the assassination of Brian Thompson.
- pvaldes 2y agoWouldn't be much easier to just not supporting the men that promised you to remove your healthcare?. Individually importing drugs (plus tariffs) from the other coin of the planet is an unnecessarily complicated way to hack this problem.
- pvaldes 2y agoCan't fall to mention that buying drugs overseas is not Bioterrorism.
- RockRobotRock 2y agoIf you think this is stupid, dangerous, and reckless, you're right! Redirect some of that anger to the healthcare industry.
- l0b0 2y agoThe page returns HTTP 404, but I can't find a mention of a redaction. Embarrassment? Legal pressure? Or do they remove recent videos as a matter of course?
- Boernii 2y agoThe talk is not online anymore. Anyone has a mirror?
- derduff 2y agohttps://mirror.netcologne.de/CCC/congress/2024/h264-hd/38c3-316-eng-BioTerrorism_Will_Save_Your_Life_with_the_4_Thieves_Vinegar_Collective.mp4 https://mirror.netcologne.de/CCC/congress/2024/h264-hd/38c3-...