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I don’t. I highly suggest everyone else does their darnedest not too either. Don’t do it in your own software. Refuse and push back against it at $dayJob. I r

by callc 2y ago

I don’t. I highly suggest everyone else does their darnedest not too either. Don’t do it in your own software. Refuse and push back against it at $dayJob. I realize that my small contribution as a privacy and data-respecting SWE is extremely small, but if we all push back against the MBAs telling us to do these things, the world will be better off.

caseyy 2y ago
So long as a significant portion of companies harvest user data to provide “free” services, no well-meaning business can compete with their paid apps. Not in a real way. It’s the prisoner’s dilemma, but one vs many instead of one vs one. So long as someone defects, everyone either defects or goes out of business. It’s the same as with unethical supply chains. A business using slave labour in their supply chain will out-compete all businesses that don’t. So well-meaning business owners can’t really switch to better supply chains as it is the same as just dissolving their business there and then. Only universal regulation can fix this. If everyone is forced not to defect, we can win the prisoners dilemma. But so long as even 10% of big tech defects and creates this extremely lucrative business of personal data trade that kills every company not participating, we will continue to participate more and more. Read Meditations on Moloch for more examples.
thrance 2y ago
You sadly can't fix a systemic issue by telling individual workers what not to do. There's too much money on the line.
- namtab00 2y ago
  And in sw dev, especially the US flavor, individual workers are highly directly incentivized to hit that next earnings target via vesting programs...
  - saagarjha 2y ago
    Individual developers have very limited impact on earnings targets.
fragmede 2y ago
Why do you assume it's MBA driven? As a software developer, I like knowing when my software crashes so that I can fix it. I don't care or even want to know who you are, your IP address, or anything that could be linked back to you in any way, but I can't fix it if I don't know that it's crashing in the first place.
- walterbell 2y ago
  Customers can (optionally) submit crash logs via email or support portal. Apple iOS provides crash logs via the following navigation path: Privacy & Security Analytics Data AppName-date-time.ips Notice Apple's choice of top-level menu for crash logs?
  - criddell 2y ago
    Makes sense to me. Many exploits use a crash as their wedge into a system.
  - fragmede 2y ago
    And of course you've reported every single crash you've encountered via email or support portal? Normal people don't email support with crash logs, they just grumble about it to their coworkers and don't help fix the problem. You can't fix a problem you don't know about.
    - AlexandrB 2y ago
      > You can't fix a problem you don't know about. And yet we don't have home inspectors coming into our homes unannounced every week just to make sure everything is ok. Why is it that software engineers feel so entitled to do things that no other profession does?
      - fragmede 2y ago
        Because software is digital and different than the physical world and someone like you understands that. It's intellectually dishonest to pretend otherwise. How hard is it to make a copy of your house including all the things inside of it? Can you remove all personally identifying features from your house with a computer program? Analogies have their limitations and don't always lead to rational conclusions. Physicists had to contend with a lot of those after Stephen Hawking wrote his book about black holes with crazy theories that don't make sense if you know the math behind them. Downloading a torrent isn't the same thing as going to the record store and physically stealing a CD, and regular people can also understand that there's a difference between the invasiveness of a human being entering your house and someone not doing that. So either people can understand torrenting isn't the same as going into a store a physically stealing something and anonymized crash logs aren't the same thing as a home inspector coming into your house, or Napster and torrenters actually owe the millions that the RIAA and MPAA want them to. I'm not saying that all tracking is unequivocally good, or even okay, some of it is downright bad. But let's not treat people as idiots who can't tell the difference between the digital and physical realm.

by callc 2y ago

caseyy 2y ago

So long as a significant portion of companies harvest user data to provide “free” services, no well-meaning business can compete with their paid apps. Not in a real way. It’s the prisoner’s dilemma, but one vs many instead of one vs one. So long as someone defects, everyone either defects or goes out of business. It’s the same as with unethical supply chains. A business using slave labour in their supply chain will out-compete all businesses that don’t. So well-meaning business owners can’t really switch to better supply chains as it is the same as just dissolving their business there and then. Only universal regulation can fix this. If everyone is forced not to defect, we can win the prisoners dilemma. But so long as even 10% of big tech defects and creates this extremely lucrative business of personal data trade that kills every company not participating, we will continue to participate more and more. Read Meditations on Moloch for more examples.

thrance 2y ago

You sadly can't fix a systemic issue by telling individual workers what not to do. There's too much money on the line.

namtab00 2y ago
And in sw dev, especially the US flavor, individual workers are highly directly incentivized to hit that next earnings target via vesting programs...
- saagarjha 2y ago
  Individual developers have very limited impact on earnings targets.

fragmede 2y ago

Why do you assume it's MBA driven? As a software developer, I like knowing when my software crashes so that I can fix it. I don't care or even want to know who you are, your IP address, or anything that could be linked back to you in any way, but I can't fix it if I don't know that it's crashing in the first place.

walterbell 2y ago
Customers can (optionally) submit crash logs via email or support portal. Apple iOS provides crash logs via the following navigation path: Privacy & Security Analytics Data AppName-date-time.ips Notice Apple's choice of top-level menu for crash logs?
- criddell 2y ago
  Makes sense to me. Many exploits use a crash as their wedge into a system.
- fragmede 2y ago
  And of course you've reported every single crash you've encountered via email or support portal? Normal people don't email support with crash logs, they just grumble about it to their coworkers and don't help fix the problem. You can't fix a problem you don't know about.
  - AlexandrB 2y ago
    > You can't fix a problem you don't know about. And yet we don't have home inspectors coming into our homes unannounced every week just to make sure everything is ok. Why is it that software engineers feel so entitled to do things that no other profession does?
    - fragmede 2y ago
      Because software is digital and different than the physical world and someone like you understands that. It's intellectually dishonest to pretend otherwise. How hard is it to make a copy of your house including all the things inside of it? Can you remove all personally identifying features from your house with a computer program? Analogies have their limitations and don't always lead to rational conclusions. Physicists had to contend with a lot of those after Stephen Hawking wrote his book about black holes with crazy theories that don't make sense if you know the math behind them. Downloading a torrent isn't the same thing as going to the record store and physically stealing a CD, and regular people can also understand that there's a difference between the invasiveness of a human being entering your house and someone not doing that. So either people can understand torrenting isn't the same as going into a store a physically stealing something and anonymized crash logs aren't the same thing as a home inspector coming into your house, or Napster and torrenters actually owe the millions that the RIAA and MPAA want them to. I'm not saying that all tracking is unequivocally good, or even okay, some of it is downright bad. But let's not treat people as idiots who can't tell the difference between the digital and physical realm.