11 ms·

Trump sides with Musk on support for H-1B visas for foreign tech workers

67 points by fuzztester 2y ago

ritcgab 2y ago
The abuse is real. Many "domestic" consulting companies dominate the H-1B visa application process, often resorting to significant fraud in the past. A large portion of these applicants have had no prior connections to the U.S. and are frequently underpaid. While cheating has decreased, there remains a need to elevate the standards in place. It's important to note that these individuals are not directly competing with or displacing U.S. citizens from their jobs. They are primarily employed by the consulting firms themselves. The challenges in securing employment stem from the slowdown in the rapid expansion of the tech industry. As a hiring manager, when a job posting is made with a specified salary range, applicants are expected to accept that range. Given two equally qualified candidates, selecting a citizen is often the more cost-effective and less complicated choice. New graduates often face difficulties because they largely don't possess the specific qualifications that many tech companies seek. These companies typically require individuals with practical experience. This can be gained through prior work experience (which is often unattainable for new graduates) or by demonstrating a genuine interest in technology through personal projects or contributions. Course project doesn't count. That is the hard truth. Calling for government's protection is not the way to go.
guilhas 2y ago
These visas are outdated mechanisms, since US companies can now hire senior developers working remotely, at discount prices, from anywhere in the world On one side we want to disagree with Trump, on the other we support remote work, though one for HN
- gregw2 2y ago
  True, but there is a moderate amount of hard to beancounter-quantify working with people many time zones away for whom their mother tongue is not English. Communication is an underappreciated valuable engineering skill. We are getting better at measuring environmental externalities, but not yet those.
jmpman 2y ago
I used to travel for work, and one year covered companies in St Louis. St Louis is approximately 50% white and 50% black, and yet whenever I went into these companies, the demographics were 50% white and 50% Indian, with blacks only being found as security guards at the front desk. It felt like the H1B were used to fill the low level positions that could have been taken by aspiring black Americans. Steve Bannon made this point recently, and I was shocked to agree with anything he said, much less find myself forwarding his videos to my friends.
- sinuhe69 2y ago
  There are clearly abuses, and the abuses should be addressed; it will also be good for the valid H1-B applicants. One simple solution is to raise the salary threshold. H1-B for store managers is obviously not justified. On the other hand, there's no question that H1-B or similar programmes help the American economy enormously. Especially for talented graduates from top American universities. Why not hire them if you don't have to pay for their education? They even contribute significantly to the coffers of American universities, indirectly allowing Americans to study at a much cheaper price.
- blased 2y ago
  H1-B and other visas outside exceptional talent (Einstein level) shouldn't exist. Repeal them.
  - gregw2 2y ago
    H-1B is also not the only issue. Who are these companies that the F500 use for setting "pay bands" for positions, and are they an antitrust threat like that RealPage real-estate firm everyone uses? Inquiring minds want to know...
ertdfgcvb 2y ago
hard to say how much of this will actually translate into policy. The last revision to the policy helped close out loopholes, may be more to come? Unlikely that the H1B is going away any time soon. Domestic workers will need to adapt and grind, very hard indeed in this job market. Definitely need more bridges between domenstic and immigrant workers to avoid online vitriol spilling IRL.
paradox242 2y ago
Elon wants this for the same reason he will inevitably use his role in the Trump administration to dismantle union protections; he prefers a cheap, easily cowed workforce that he can use and then throw away as needed. Trump shares this mindset and so do his donors. It is true that we get some very qualified people through this program, but that is mostly a happy accident that serves to provide cover for supporting it. The vast majority of the time the visa holders are no more qualified than native applicants, and instead are simply cheaper and easier to exploit labor.
fuzztester 2y ago
Wonder what people think about this on both or multiple sides of the equation.
- evanjrowley 2y ago
  People say this has upset Trump supporters who are supposedly "anti-immigration" but most of the Trump supporters I know are immigrants and nobody has a major problem with this.
  - malandrew 2y ago
    I voted for Trump and an immigrant and I'm mixed on immigration. I've been in the US for 29 years now and I'm a US citizen. I'm more American in attitude than most Americans I know. I consider myself a nationalist. Immigration has been both good and bad for America and both sides in this debate are being super dishonest. First and foremost, I strongly believe that elected representatives should represent the best interests of their citizens and ONLY their citizens. The best interest of potential future citizens is not something they should even give a thought to. Some immigration is in the best interest of the citizens of a country. Skimming the top 0.1% or maybe even just the top 0.01% of the best and the brightest abroad absolutely is in the best interests of Americans. That's the question that should be asked when admitting an immigrant: "Is this person a net benefit to the citizens of this country I was elected to represent?" If the answer to that question is "Yes", then the next question should be "How should we admit this person to come work in the US so that Americans get the benefits and we mitigate any downside from allowing them in?" Neither of these questions are being asked. A country is basically a team like Elon said and we are in competition with other teams like Europe, China, India, etc. It is worth building out the best team, but that can't be done in a way where you hurt the citizens you were elected to represent. Before I continue, one big point about American citizens. They aren't all white as has been misrepresented in this debate. A lot of them are first and second generation non-whites. American-born folks of Indian, Chinese, Hispanic, etc, descent are all American citizens currently being hurt by the H1-B program. Couple of major issues with the current H1-B program: First, it absolutely must cost more to bring in an immigrant to do a job than to hire an American. Under no situation should it be allowed to depress wages. If a citizen costs X, it should cost like 1.5x or some value like that to import the talent you need if you genuinely can't find the talent you need domestically. Second, the visa should belong the the person being brought to the US. A company can sponsor them and maybe get exclusive access for some short period of time like the first year or so, but after that, the person should not have their visa tied to the employer that sponsored them. If they get a good perf review after their first year on the job, they absolutely should get an extension to stay another N years like 3 to 5, but at this point they are totally free to work for any other company with zero risk of losing their visa status if they choose not to continue working for the employer that sponsored them. If that employer wants to keep them, they'll have to pay the premium to keep them and treat them well. No immigrant should ever feel like an indentured servant. Third, scrutiny should be applied to all companies involved in using the H1-B program as a visa mill and to co-ethnic nepotism. You absolutely need to make sure that companies aren't "selling" the visas. For example, someone in country X should not be able to pay or perform a favor for a company in the US to get a visa. A genuine need needs to be demonstrated and we need to make sure there is no quid pro quo. Co-ethnic nepotism is another big one. Executives and managers should not be able to sponsor H1-Bs from their country of origin or from their religious group. If the CEO of a company is from country X and manager of the team is from country Y, then the H1-B visa cannot be filled by someone from either country X or Y. There are 195 countries in the world. Removing the United States, country X and country Y, still leaves 192 other countries from which to find talent. Lastly, we need to focus on assimilation. I have citizenship from three countries myself and I choose to live in the US because I value US culture (or at least what it was 10 to 15 years ago). If I wanted to live and work in the other countries in which I could legally work, I'd move to those countries. I don't want that. I want to live and work in the US because I value US culture. If you disproportionately bring in immigrants from particular countries, you turn the US into those other countries for better and for worse. This happens both at the national level and at the local level. I don't want it at either. In fact, when you disproportionately bring in people from country X into a specific locality, you make it harder for those folks to assimilate. This allows the formation of ethnic/cultural enclaves. This should not happen. You should have a mix of folks from multiple countries in a place so they actually co-mingle and assimilate to become Americans. Not hyphenated Americans, but bonafide Americans that adopt America as the home and the country in which they pride themselves. Completely disregarding assimilation is going to kill the Golden Goose that Elon Musk values. He can build SpaceX here in American but not in country X or country Y. However, if we culturally turn the US into country X or country Y or just kill the current culture we have now with an indiscriminate immigration policy, then he won't be able to keep building SpaceX in the US in the way he has in the past. He may be able to fix the regulatory hurdles to getting to Mars with DOGE, but he won't be able to fix the culture of the country if we don't prevent the negative aspects of the change in culture. America today is already a much lower trust culture than when I moved here 29 years ago and the continued loss of trust threatens being able to get anything done together as Americans. Coethnic nepotism within a firm, for example, absolutely hurts the ability for that firm to fulfill on its mission as different enclaves within the firm fight with one another for a bigger piece of the pie instead of working together to grow the size of the pie. America isn't just an idea and it isn't just an economic zone. It is a nation of people and the makeup of those people can evolve over time, but it should remain a nation of people. Basically, I want to Make American a High Trust Culture Again. This has nothing to do with race or ethnicity. It's culture and it requires assimilation and a common identity. Our motto is e pluribus unum, not e pluribus pluribus.
breadwinner 2y ago
There is legit use of H-1B, which helps make America the leader in tech. Top tech companies like Google, Microsoft, Apple and Amazon would not be top tech companies without this immigration. Then there are abusers... for example back in 2016 Disney hired a bunch of H-1B workers and immediately laid off American workers, and then required those American workers to train their H-1B replacements. The abuse must be stopped, it hurts everyone. The legit use must be encouraged, and expanded -- it makes America strong, and creates jobs.
- asadotzler 2y ago
  Why on earth are you giving Big Tech a pass here? Are you effing kidding?
- bdangubic 2y ago
  there is very little legit use of H1B, the tech companies are abusing it by not hiring US employees in lieu of getting underpaid H1B’s who have no option to leave for a better opportunity or higher pay (or to unionize) - modern day white collar “slavery”
  - rbanffy 2y ago
    The customer (companies) don’t think the price for US employees is a good deal and prefer to find a cheaper option that can’t quit as easily. In market terms, H1B workers are simply a better product - slightly cheaper (because companies can game the system) and more predictable (because they can’t show the employer the middle finger).
    - jollyllama 2y ago
      No, you missed the point of the GP. The companies don't want them because they are cheaper, they want them because they have less rights. > who have no option to leave for a better opportunity or higher pay (or to unionize) The companies don't want cheaper labor. They want slave labor.
      - 2y ago
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
GiorgioG 2y ago
Well, President Musk has spoken.
- bromuro 2y ago
  Isn’t lobbying integral part of the US democracy?
  - dehugger 2y ago
    Lobbying is certainly integral to the US oligarchy.
blandcoffee 2y ago
This policy needs a refresh - there are many issues with the H1B program today - a good article if you're interested: https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2024-staffing-firms-game-h1b-visa-lottery-system/ https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2024-staffing-firms-game-... We should be wary billionaires are controlling these policies. Bernie Sanders did this interview a decade ago and he was right, unchecked immigration is not in the economic interest of the working class. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vf-k6qOfXz0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vf-k6qOfXz0
- greentxt 2y ago
  If only there was a party for Bernie and his supporters.
  - okdood64 2y ago
    Bernie mostly bent the knee, and fell in line to his party's talking points. He dropped talking about immigration this way a while ago.

67 points by fuzztester 2y ago

The abuse is real. Many "domestic" consulting companies dominate the H-1B visa application process, often resorting to significant fraud in the past. A large portion of these applicants have had no prior connections to the U.S. and are frequently underpaid. While cheating has decreased, there remains a need to elevate the standards in place. It's important to note that these individuals are not directly competing with or displacing U.S. citizens from their jobs. They are primarily employed by the consulting firms themselves. The challenges in securing employment stem from the slowdown in the rapid expansion of the tech industry. As a hiring manager, when a job posting is made with a specified salary range, applicants are expected to accept that range. Given two equally qualified candidates, selecting a citizen is often the more cost-effective and less complicated choice. New graduates often face difficulties because they largely don't possess the specific qualifications that many tech companies seek. These companies typically require individuals with practical experience. This can be gained through prior work experience (which is often unattainable for new graduates) or by demonstrating a genuine interest in technology through personal projects or contributions. Course project doesn't count. That is the hard truth. Calling for government's protection is not the way to go.

guilhas 2y ago

These visas are outdated mechanisms, since US companies can now hire senior developers working remotely, at discount prices, from anywhere in the world On one side we want to disagree with Trump, on the other we support remote work, though one for HN

gregw2 2y ago
True, but there is a moderate amount of hard to beancounter-quantify working with people many time zones away for whom their mother tongue is not English. Communication is an underappreciated valuable engineering skill. We are getting better at measuring environmental externalities, but not yet those.

jmpman 2y ago

I used to travel for work, and one year covered companies in St Louis. St Louis is approximately 50% white and 50% black, and yet whenever I went into these companies, the demographics were 50% white and 50% Indian, with blacks only being found as security guards at the front desk. It felt like the H1B were used to fill the low level positions that could have been taken by aspiring black Americans. Steve Bannon made this point recently, and I was shocked to agree with anything he said, much less find myself forwarding his videos to my friends.

sinuhe69 2y ago
There are clearly abuses, and the abuses should be addressed; it will also be good for the valid H1-B applicants. One simple solution is to raise the salary threshold. H1-B for store managers is obviously not justified. On the other hand, there's no question that H1-B or similar programmes help the American economy enormously. Especially for talented graduates from top American universities. Why not hire them if you don't have to pay for their education? They even contribute significantly to the coffers of American universities, indirectly allowing Americans to study at a much cheaper price.
blased 2y ago
H1-B and other visas outside exceptional talent (Einstein level) shouldn't exist. Repeal them.
- gregw2 2y ago
  H-1B is also not the only issue. Who are these companies that the F500 use for setting "pay bands" for positions, and are they an antitrust threat like that RealPage real-estate firm everyone uses? Inquiring minds want to know...

ertdfgcvb 2y ago

hard to say how much of this will actually translate into policy. The last revision to the policy helped close out loopholes, may be more to come? Unlikely that the H1B is going away any time soon. Domestic workers will need to adapt and grind, very hard indeed in this job market. Definitely need more bridges between domenstic and immigrant workers to avoid online vitriol spilling IRL.

paradox242 2y ago

Elon wants this for the same reason he will inevitably use his role in the Trump administration to dismantle union protections; he prefers a cheap, easily cowed workforce that he can use and then throw away as needed. Trump shares this mindset and so do his donors. It is true that we get some very qualified people through this program, but that is mostly a happy accident that serves to provide cover for supporting it. The vast majority of the time the visa holders are no more qualified than native applicants, and instead are simply cheaper and easier to exploit labor.

fuzztester 2y ago

Wonder what people think about this on both or multiple sides of the equation.

evanjrowley 2y ago
People say this has upset Trump supporters who are supposedly "anti-immigration" but most of the Trump supporters I know are immigrants and nobody has a major problem with this.
- malandrew 2y ago
  I voted for Trump and an immigrant and I'm mixed on immigration. I've been in the US for 29 years now and I'm a US citizen. I'm more American in attitude than most Americans I know. I consider myself a nationalist. Immigration has been both good and bad for America and both sides in this debate are being super dishonest. First and foremost, I strongly believe that elected representatives should represent the best interests of their citizens and ONLY their citizens. The best interest of potential future citizens is not something they should even give a thought to. Some immigration is in the best interest of the citizens of a country. Skimming the top 0.1% or maybe even just the top 0.01% of the best and the brightest abroad absolutely is in the best interests of Americans. That's the question that should be asked when admitting an immigrant: "Is this person a net benefit to the citizens of this country I was elected to represent?" If the answer to that question is "Yes", then the next question should be "How should we admit this person to come work in the US so that Americans get the benefits and we mitigate any downside from allowing them in?" Neither of these questions are being asked. A country is basically a team like Elon said and we are in competition with other teams like Europe, China, India, etc. It is worth building out the best team, but that can't be done in a way where you hurt the citizens you were elected to represent. Before I continue, one big point about American citizens. They aren't all white as has been misrepresented in this debate. A lot of them are first and second generation non-whites. American-born folks of Indian, Chinese, Hispanic, etc, descent are all American citizens currently being hurt by the H1-B program. Couple of major issues with the current H1-B program: First, it absolutely must cost more to bring in an immigrant to do a job than to hire an American. Under no situation should it be allowed to depress wages. If a citizen costs X, it should cost like 1.5x or some value like that to import the talent you need if you genuinely can't find the talent you need domestically. Second, the visa should belong the the person being brought to the US. A company can sponsor them and maybe get exclusive access for some short period of time like the first year or so, but after that, the person should not have their visa tied to the employer that sponsored them. If they get a good perf review after their first year on the job, they absolutely should get an extension to stay another N years like 3 to 5, but at this point they are totally free to work for any other company with zero risk of losing their visa status if they choose not to continue working for the employer that sponsored them. If that employer wants to keep them, they'll have to pay the premium to keep them and treat them well. No immigrant should ever feel like an indentured servant. Third, scrutiny should be applied to all companies involved in using the H1-B program as a visa mill and to co-ethnic nepotism. You absolutely need to make sure that companies aren't "selling" the visas. For example, someone in country X should not be able to pay or perform a favor for a company in the US to get a visa. A genuine need needs to be demonstrated and we need to make sure there is no quid pro quo. Co-ethnic nepotism is another big one. Executives and managers should not be able to sponsor H1-Bs from their country of origin or from their religious group. If the CEO of a company is from country X and manager of the team is from country Y, then the H1-B visa cannot be filled by someone from either country X or Y. There are 195 countries in the world. Removing the United States, country X and country Y, still leaves 192 other countries from which to find talent. Lastly, we need to focus on assimilation. I have citizenship from three countries myself and I choose to live in the US because I value US culture (or at least what it was 10 to 15 years ago). If I wanted to live and work in the other countries in which I could legally work, I'd move to those countries. I don't want that. I want to live and work in the US because I value US culture. If you disproportionately bring in immigrants from particular countries, you turn the US into those other countries for better and for worse. This happens both at the national level and at the local level. I don't want it at either. In fact, when you disproportionately bring in people from country X into a specific locality, you make it harder for those folks to assimilate. This allows the formation of ethnic/cultural enclaves. This should not happen. You should have a mix of folks from multiple countries in a place so they actually co-mingle and assimilate to become Americans. Not hyphenated Americans, but bonafide Americans that adopt America as the home and the country in which they pride themselves. Completely disregarding assimilation is going to kill the Golden Goose that Elon Musk values. He can build SpaceX here in American but not in country X or country Y. However, if we culturally turn the US into country X or country Y or just kill the current culture we have now with an indiscriminate immigration policy, then he won't be able to keep building SpaceX in the US in the way he has in the past. He may be able to fix the regulatory hurdles to getting to Mars with DOGE, but he won't be able to fix the culture of the country if we don't prevent the negative aspects of the change in culture. America today is already a much lower trust culture than when I moved here 29 years ago and the continued loss of trust threatens being able to get anything done together as Americans. Coethnic nepotism within a firm, for example, absolutely hurts the ability for that firm to fulfill on its mission as different enclaves within the firm fight with one another for a bigger piece of the pie instead of working together to grow the size of the pie. America isn't just an idea and it isn't just an economic zone. It is a nation of people and the makeup of those people can evolve over time, but it should remain a nation of people. Basically, I want to Make American a High Trust Culture Again. This has nothing to do with race or ethnicity. It's culture and it requires assimilation and a common identity. Our motto is e pluribus unum, not e pluribus pluribus.

breadwinner 2y ago

There is legit use of H-1B, which helps make America the leader in tech. Top tech companies like Google, Microsoft, Apple and Amazon would not be top tech companies without this immigration. Then there are abusers... for example back in 2016 Disney hired a bunch of H-1B workers and immediately laid off American workers, and then required those American workers to train their H-1B replacements. The abuse must be stopped, it hurts everyone. The legit use must be encouraged, and expanded -- it makes America strong, and creates jobs.

asadotzler 2y ago
Why on earth are you giving Big Tech a pass here? Are you effing kidding?
bdangubic 2y ago
there is very little legit use of H1B, the tech companies are abusing it by not hiring US employees in lieu of getting underpaid H1B’s who have no option to leave for a better opportunity or higher pay (or to unionize) - modern day white collar “slavery”
- rbanffy 2y ago
  The customer (companies) don’t think the price for US employees is a good deal and prefer to find a cheaper option that can’t quit as easily. In market terms, H1B workers are simply a better product - slightly cheaper (because companies can game the system) and more predictable (because they can’t show the employer the middle finger).
  - jollyllama 2y ago
    No, you missed the point of the GP. The companies don't want them because they are cheaper, they want them because they have less rights. > who have no option to leave for a better opportunity or higher pay (or to unionize) The companies don't want cheaper labor. They want slave labor.
    - 2y ago

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

GiorgioG 2y ago

Well, President Musk has spoken.

bromuro 2y ago
Isn’t lobbying integral part of the US democracy?
- dehugger 2y ago
  Lobbying is certainly integral to the US oligarchy.

blandcoffee 2y ago

This policy needs a refresh - there are many issues with the H1B program today - a good article if you're interested: https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2024-staffing-firms-game-h1b-visa-lottery-system/ https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2024-staffing-firms-game-... We should be wary billionaires are controlling these policies. Bernie Sanders did this interview a decade ago and he was right, unchecked immigration is not in the economic interest of the working class. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vf-k6qOfXz0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vf-k6qOfXz0

greentxt 2y ago
If only there was a party for Bernie and his supporters.
- okdood64 2y ago
  Bernie mostly bent the knee, and fell in line to his party's talking points. He dropped talking about immigration this way a while ago.