5 ms·

If you can't stand out from an LLM then why can't it do your job? Also, not using LLMs might be a red flag. I wouldn't want a dev that is not open to this tech

If you can't stand out from an LLM then why can't it do your job? Also, not using LLMs might be a red flag. I wouldn't want a dev that is not open to this technology...

MrMember 2y ago
>If you can't stand out from an LLM then why can't it do your job? My job isn't writing resumes and cover letters. > Also, not using LLMs might be a red flag. I wouldn't want a dev that is not open to this technology... lmao this is exactly the issue. There are hiring managers in here saying they're trying to filter out people using LLMs in applications and you're telling me to use LLMs.
margalabargala 2y ago
> Also, not using LLMs might be a red flag. I wouldn't want a dev that is not open to this technology... The person you're replying to is a senior, not junior candidate. For junior devs who are still learning, LLMs are a great force multiplier that help them understand code faster and integrate new things. For senior devs, LLMs are a maybe-optional tool that might save a couple hours per week, on a good week. I would consider extremely heavy LLM use a much larger red flag for a senior level position, than not using them at all.
- randomNumber7 2y ago
  It is the opposite. Juniors can only solve toy tasks with chatgpt. Someone with experience can first think through the problem. Maybe use chatgpt for some resarch and fresh up your memory first. Then you can break up the problem and let chatgpt implement the stuff instead typing everything. Since you are smart and experience you know what chunks of code it can write (basically nothing new. only stuff you could copy pasta before if you had somehow access to all code in the internet yourself). TLDR: It is way faster to use it. Especially for experienced programmers. Everything else is just ignorant.
- kelvinjps10 2y ago
  What is consensus at the end, I have heard people say that is good for seniors but for juniors is detrimental.
- bb88 2y ago
  Github copilot still sucks for writing complex code (algorithms or database queries, e.g.). Or trying to do unpopular things (like custom electronics using particular micros and driver chips). For unit tests, it's a godsend. Particularly if you write one unit test, and then it can write another in the style you wrote.
  - fijiaarone 2y ago
    LLMs can’t write unit tests. They can’t even tell what you intend. If your code is already correct, you don’t need the unit test, if it’s not, the LLM can’t write the unit test. If you thing an LLM can write tests for you, you can be replaced by an LLM.
    - lukan 2y ago
      I don't think the concept here is blindly taking the output of the LLM and calling it a day. One can test, the test.
      - bb88 2y ago
        I've had about 33% luck with unit tests coming out perfect. Usually the issues are small problems that are easily fixed though.
    - margalabargala 2y ago
      > If your code is already correct, you don’t need the unit test. I don't know where you work where code is written once and is never changed again, but enjoy it while it lasts...
      - bb88 2y ago
        Worse is when a protocol or shared state condition is modified. E.g. suddenly some fresh out of college know-it-all sent crap into your function that you weren't expecting. Then he went to management to blame you for writing such shitty code. Thing is you wrote unit tests around that code and the shitty know-it-all deleted them rather than changing them when he modified the code This is why management needs to understand code.
- jcutrell 2y ago
  I've been in the industry for something like 15 years. I've been using LLMs to help me create the stuff I always wanted but never had time to make myself. This is how LLMs can be used by seniors to great effect - not just to cut time off tasks.
  - globalnode 2y ago
    Same here (not in the industry though). I recently got a personal project done with the help of LLM's that I otherwise wouldnt have had the time or energy to research properly if it wasnt for the time savings.
    - ryandrake 2y ago
      I’ve done so many tiny hobby projects lately that scratch 10+ year itches, where I’ve said so many times “I wish there was an application for this, but I’m too lazy to sit down and learn some Python library and actually do it.” Little utilities that might have taken me a day to bring up a bunch of boilerplate, study a few docs, write the code switching back and forth from the docs, and then debugging. Today that utility takes me 30 minutes tops to write just using Copilot and it’s done.
- XenophileJKO 2y ago
  I kind of feel like it is the inverse in many ways. As an experienced engineer, I know how to describe what I want which is 90% of getting the right implementation. Secondly, because I know what I want and how it should work, I tend to know it when I see it. Often it only takes a nudge to get to a solution similar to what I already would have done. Usually it is just a quick comment like: "Do it in a functional style." or "This needs to have double check locking around {something}." When I am working in the edge of my knowledge I can also lean on the model, but I know when I need to validate approaches that I am not sure satisfy my constraints. A junior engineer doesn't know what they need most of the time and they usually don't understand which are the important constraints to communicate to the model. I use an LLM to generate probably 50-60% of my code? Certainly it isn't ALWAYS strictly faster, but sometimes it is way way faster. On of the other things that is an advantage is it requires less detailed thinking at the inception phase which allows my do fire off something to build a class, make a change when I am in a context where I can't devote 100% of my attention to it and then review all the code later, still saving a bunch of time.
  - margalabargala 2y ago
    I'm not making numbers up here; the controlled studies that have been done agree with me. See here: https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=4945566 https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=4945566 Worse/less experienced developers see a much greater increase in output, and better and more experienced developers see much less improvement. AI are great at generating junior level work en masse, but their output generally is not up to quality and functionality standards at a more senior level. This is both what I've personally observed and what my peers have said as well. Out of curiosity, which LLM code tool do you use?
    - XenophileJKO 2y ago
      So I often use Github Copilot at work usually with o1-preview as the LLM. This often isn't "autocomplete" which generally uses a lower end model, I almost exclusively use the inline chat. That being said.. I do also use the auto-complete a lot when editing. I might create a comment on what I want to do and have it auto-complete, that is usually pretty accurate, and also works well with me since I liked Code Complete comment then implement method. For example I needed to create a starting point for 4 langchain tools that would use different prompts. They are initially similar but, I'll be deverging them. I would do something like copy the file of one. select all then use the inline chat to ask o1 to rename the file, rip out some stuff and make sure the naming was internally consistent. Then I might attach additional output schema file and the maybe something else I want it to integrate with and tell it to go to town. About 90% of the work is done right.. then I just have to touch up. (This specific use case is not typical, but it is an example where it saved me time, I have them scafolded out and functional while listening to a keynote and in-between meetings.. then in the laster day I validated it. There were a handful of misses that I needed to clean up.)
- mp05 2y ago
  > For senior devs, LLMs are a maybe-optional tool that might save a couple hours per week, on a good week. I'm an industrial engineer who writes software and admittedly not a "senior dev", I guess, but LLMs help me save much more than just a few hours of week when crapping out a bunch of Qt/Python code that would cause my eyes to glaze over if I had to plod through it.
- condiment 2y ago
  The flag you want to see from a senior is reasoned examples of how they use it effectively. Ask for stories about successes and failures. By now, everyone has some.
- sibeliuss 2y ago
  You've got this completely backwards. A Jr with an LLM is a recipe for disaster. They don't know the tech, and have no clue what the LLM is spitting back. They copy code into the abyss. Meanwhile, a sr with an LLM is a straight up superpower!
  - margalabargala 2y ago
    Here's a recent study showing junior devs seeing far higher gains from LLMs than seniors: https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=4945566 https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=4945566
zero-sharp 2y ago
>If you can't stand out from an LLM then why can't it do your job? I downvoted your post because this is a complete nonsequitur.
- randomNumber7 2y ago
  That is so mean. I actually cried for 5 minutes.
- olddustytrail 2y ago
  If you reply to a comment I believe it cancels your downvote.
  - lukan 2y ago
    For the ranking order. The post itself will still get greyed out, or flagged after enough downvotes.
RobRivera 2y ago
What company have you hired developers for?
rachelgunn 2y ago
[dead]
77pt77 2y ago
LLMs just lie way too much. Like completely fabricate what they need for a plausible answer from thin air. As of now they do more harm than good.
- snozolli 2y ago
  Like completely fabricate what they need for a plausible answer from thin air. Reminds me of a guy I used to work with. He just made stuff up all the time. Turns out, the answers never actually mattered, people were just bored at their desk and wanted to give the appearance of doing work. I think he's in management at Apple now.
  - 77pt77 2y ago
    > I think he's in management at Apple now. Clearly management material. We all know that.

If you can't stand out from an LLM then why can't it do your job? Also, not using LLMs might be a red flag. I wouldn't want a dev that is not open to this technology...

MrMember 2y ago

>If you can't stand out from an LLM then why can't it do your job? My job isn't writing resumes and cover letters. > Also, not using LLMs might be a red flag. I wouldn't want a dev that is not open to this technology... lmao this is exactly the issue. There are hiring managers in here saying they're trying to filter out people using LLMs in applications and you're telling me to use LLMs.

margalabargala 2y ago

> Also, not using LLMs might be a red flag. I wouldn't want a dev that is not open to this technology... The person you're replying to is a senior, not junior candidate. For junior devs who are still learning, LLMs are a great force multiplier that help them understand code faster and integrate new things. For senior devs, LLMs are a maybe-optional tool that might save a couple hours per week, on a good week. I would consider extremely heavy LLM use a much larger red flag for a senior level position, than not using them at all.

randomNumber7 2y ago
It is the opposite. Juniors can only solve toy tasks with chatgpt. Someone with experience can first think through the problem. Maybe use chatgpt for some resarch and fresh up your memory first. Then you can break up the problem and let chatgpt implement the stuff instead typing everything. Since you are smart and experience you know what chunks of code it can write (basically nothing new. only stuff you could copy pasta before if you had somehow access to all code in the internet yourself). TLDR: It is way faster to use it. Especially for experienced programmers. Everything else is just ignorant.
kelvinjps10 2y ago
What is consensus at the end, I have heard people say that is good for seniors but for juniors is detrimental.
bb88 2y ago
Github copilot still sucks for writing complex code (algorithms or database queries, e.g.). Or trying to do unpopular things (like custom electronics using particular micros and driver chips). For unit tests, it's a godsend. Particularly if you write one unit test, and then it can write another in the style you wrote.
- fijiaarone 2y ago
  LLMs can’t write unit tests. They can’t even tell what you intend. If your code is already correct, you don’t need the unit test, if it’s not, the LLM can’t write the unit test. If you thing an LLM can write tests for you, you can be replaced by an LLM.
  - lukan 2y ago
    I don't think the concept here is blindly taking the output of the LLM and calling it a day. One can test, the test.
    - bb88 2y ago
      I've had about 33% luck with unit tests coming out perfect. Usually the issues are small problems that are easily fixed though.
  - margalabargala 2y ago
    > If your code is already correct, you don’t need the unit test. I don't know where you work where code is written once and is never changed again, but enjoy it while it lasts...
    - bb88 2y ago
      Worse is when a protocol or shared state condition is modified. E.g. suddenly some fresh out of college know-it-all sent crap into your function that you weren't expecting. Then he went to management to blame you for writing such shitty code. Thing is you wrote unit tests around that code and the shitty know-it-all deleted them rather than changing them when he modified the code This is why management needs to understand code.
jcutrell 2y ago
I've been in the industry for something like 15 years. I've been using LLMs to help me create the stuff I always wanted but never had time to make myself. This is how LLMs can be used by seniors to great effect - not just to cut time off tasks.
- globalnode 2y ago
  Same here (not in the industry though). I recently got a personal project done with the help of LLM's that I otherwise wouldnt have had the time or energy to research properly if it wasnt for the time savings.
  - ryandrake 2y ago
    I’ve done so many tiny hobby projects lately that scratch 10+ year itches, where I’ve said so many times “I wish there was an application for this, but I’m too lazy to sit down and learn some Python library and actually do it.” Little utilities that might have taken me a day to bring up a bunch of boilerplate, study a few docs, write the code switching back and forth from the docs, and then debugging. Today that utility takes me 30 minutes tops to write just using Copilot and it’s done.
XenophileJKO 2y ago
I kind of feel like it is the inverse in many ways. As an experienced engineer, I know how to describe what I want which is 90% of getting the right implementation. Secondly, because I know what I want and how it should work, I tend to know it when I see it. Often it only takes a nudge to get to a solution similar to what I already would have done. Usually it is just a quick comment like: "Do it in a functional style." or "This needs to have double check locking around {something}." When I am working in the edge of my knowledge I can also lean on the model, but I know when I need to validate approaches that I am not sure satisfy my constraints. A junior engineer doesn't know what they need most of the time and they usually don't understand which are the important constraints to communicate to the model. I use an LLM to generate probably 50-60% of my code? Certainly it isn't ALWAYS strictly faster, but sometimes it is way way faster. On of the other things that is an advantage is it requires less detailed thinking at the inception phase which allows my do fire off something to build a class, make a change when I am in a context where I can't devote 100% of my attention to it and then review all the code later, still saving a bunch of time.
- margalabargala 2y ago
  I'm not making numbers up here; the controlled studies that have been done agree with me. See here: https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=4945566 https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=4945566 Worse/less experienced developers see a much greater increase in output, and better and more experienced developers see much less improvement. AI are great at generating junior level work en masse, but their output generally is not up to quality and functionality standards at a more senior level. This is both what I've personally observed and what my peers have said as well. Out of curiosity, which LLM code tool do you use?
  - XenophileJKO 2y ago
    So I often use Github Copilot at work usually with o1-preview as the LLM. This often isn't "autocomplete" which generally uses a lower end model, I almost exclusively use the inline chat. That being said.. I do also use the auto-complete a lot when editing. I might create a comment on what I want to do and have it auto-complete, that is usually pretty accurate, and also works well with me since I liked Code Complete comment then implement method. For example I needed to create a starting point for 4 langchain tools that would use different prompts. They are initially similar but, I'll be deverging them. I would do something like copy the file of one. select all then use the inline chat to ask o1 to rename the file, rip out some stuff and make sure the naming was internally consistent. Then I might attach additional output schema file and the maybe something else I want it to integrate with and tell it to go to town. About 90% of the work is done right.. then I just have to touch up. (This specific use case is not typical, but it is an example where it saved me time, I have them scafolded out and functional while listening to a keynote and in-between meetings.. then in the laster day I validated it. There were a handful of misses that I needed to clean up.)
mp05 2y ago
> For senior devs, LLMs are a maybe-optional tool that might save a couple hours per week, on a good week. I'm an industrial engineer who writes software and admittedly not a "senior dev", I guess, but LLMs help me save much more than just a few hours of week when crapping out a bunch of Qt/Python code that would cause my eyes to glaze over if I had to plod through it.
condiment 2y ago
The flag you want to see from a senior is reasoned examples of how they use it effectively. Ask for stories about successes and failures. By now, everyone has some.
sibeliuss 2y ago
You've got this completely backwards. A Jr with an LLM is a recipe for disaster. They don't know the tech, and have no clue what the LLM is spitting back. They copy code into the abyss. Meanwhile, a sr with an LLM is a straight up superpower!
- margalabargala 2y ago
  Here's a recent study showing junior devs seeing far higher gains from LLMs than seniors: https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=4945566 https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=4945566

zero-sharp 2y ago

>If you can't stand out from an LLM then why can't it do your job? I downvoted your post because this is a complete nonsequitur.

randomNumber7 2y ago
That is so mean. I actually cried for 5 minutes.
olddustytrail 2y ago
If you reply to a comment I believe it cancels your downvote.
- lukan 2y ago
  For the ranking order. The post itself will still get greyed out, or flagged after enough downvotes.

RobRivera 2y ago

What company have you hired developers for?

rachelgunn 2y ago

[dead]

77pt77 2y ago

LLMs just lie way too much. Like completely fabricate what they need for a plausible answer from thin air. As of now they do more harm than good.

snozolli 2y ago
Like completely fabricate what they need for a plausible answer from thin air. Reminds me of a guy I used to work with. He just made stuff up all the time. Turns out, the answers never actually mattered, people were just bored at their desk and wanted to give the appearance of doing work. I think he's in management at Apple now.
- 77pt77 2y ago
  > I think he's in management at Apple now. Clearly management material. We all know that.