5 ms·

It's not just you. I have an Ivy league degree, worked in deep learning since alexnet at a leading startup in the space, was a CTO of a startup that got acquir

by m_ke 2y ago

It's not just you. I have an Ivy league degree, worked in deep learning since alexnet at a leading startup in the space, was a CTO of a startup that got acquired and have referrals from very senior people at the top FANG companies and still struggled to get interviews. I also have research scientist friends with Neurips papers, ones that solved long standing open math problems and even they are struggling to get hired. What me and my friends heard from a lot of people at the large companies was that many of them are no longer hiring in the US, but in India, Poland and Brazil instead, and that the roles they have listed in the US are for internal transfers. I've had a referral for Google for months and did not get an interview for NYC based roles, but when I went to an ML conference in Warsaw a few months ago I learned that Google is looking to hire 2000 people there, but with people in that office making ~1/4th of my friends in the US. On top of that you have a huge pool of bootcamp grads and foreign applicants so any role posted gets 1000s of applications in the first few hours, making it impossible for recruiters to look over all of them. And if that wasn't enough we're going through a huge hiring downturn post the COVID bump, see: https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/IHLIDXUSTPSOFTDEVE https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/IHLIDXUSTPSOFTDEVE

tiffanyh 2y ago
> was a CTO of a startup Could it just be, the more senior/executive level you are - the harder it’ll always be to find another comparable job. The funnel gets smaller the higher up you are.
misiti3780 2y ago
My company is hiring in ML, the position is remote, can you send me your resume?
- cmalluise1 2y ago
  My good friend is a sr ml research eng looking for remote work also
  - misiti3780 2y ago
    OK, send them my way.
- m_ke 2y ago
  Thanks, I’m actually pretty far in the interview process with a bunch of companies now but would be open to learning more. My contact info is in my bio.
jarsin 2y ago
I could see outsourcing to Poland end up working out just as great as outsourcing to Ukraine did. Not saying it will happen tomorrow, but would not surprise me to see Russia go in there after they get a big chunk of Ukraine and slowly gain control of it's government.
- bufferoverflow 2y ago
  Poland is a NATO country. Russia won't attack Poland, they only attack weak countries. Even if they take over Ukraine, their next target would be Kazakhstan or Moldova or Georgia.
- m_ke 2y ago
  Putin would be asking for WW3 if he tried that and it would not end well for him. A ton of big tech companies opened large offices in Poland in the past few years. It’s starting to look like a pretty major tech hub. If you look at Google or Box job boards most of their open roles in Europe are in Warsaw.
  - throwaway48476 2y ago
    WW3 only happens if NATO isn't bluffing about article 5. Given the lackluster response to Ukraine it doesn't look good for article 5 and Poland, which is why they're buying so many weapons now.
    - namaria 2y ago
      How does NATO response to an invasion on a non-NATO country bears on article 5 exactly?
- bartekpacia 2y ago
  At this point we all would have much worse things to worry about. Poland is a part of NATO.
  - jarsin 2y ago
iExploder 2y ago
Hiring a lot in Poland and from what I know paying peanuts compared to US salaries, but still above the market rate in Europe, mainly because market rate for engineers in EU is nothing to write home about. It sucks for you guys, but its just the new reality. Engineering is dead end career unless you are top 10%, move on to management, or money doesnt play a role, but at that point you might as well go duck farming or become a carpenter.
- bruce511 2y ago
  It turns out that work-remotely can be done by non-US based workers for a fraction of the cost of US workers. So those lobbying for work-from-home, well, this is the natural endpoint of that.
  - toomuchtodo 2y ago
    They would’ve outsourced regardless of remote or not. It’s all about cost. Employers are hedging after they felt they lost control during the “Great Resignation” and the labor cost pressures they faced from it. Remote also makes it too easy for workers to find other opportunities, versus being restricted to opportunities within a commute distance. Unless it’s offshore remote of course. This is not without peril due to structural demographics. You can only outsource so much. https://www.nbcnews.com/business/economy/hard-to-find-a-job-get-hired-why-november-2024-jobs-report-rcna183102 https://www.nbcnews.com/business/economy/hard-to-find-a-job-... | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42361817 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42361817 https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-09-18/us-faces-a-deficit-of-6-million-workers-in-less-than-a-decade https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-09-18/us-faces-... | https://archive.today/Lyr5t https://archive.today/Lyr5t
    - sunshine-o 2y ago
      > They would’ve outsourced regardless of remote or not. Absolutely > It’s all about cost. Yes and No... What is happening now in "tech" has happened before in other industries. Since the internet various service industries have outsourced, outshored, nearshored over and over all together and in different order. I would put immigration or even move to the public cloud in that bag of schemes. Unless those are very low level tasks the companies doing that don't really save money in the short and long term. This has been proven over and over in the last decades, but rarely admitted publicly. What companies try to hide by doing that are dysfunctions in management and HR (usually the people who won't get offshored). So yes it is about cost of mismanagement that need to be hidden with a very short term vision, usually to reassure shareholders. There is another layer to this that is still very taboo. There is an inability for our societies today to make people work together in a reasonably healthy and stable manner. This is why you will often hear about "toxic workplaces" or "great resignation". And casting those problems in economic terms to avoid talking about it lead us to bad and costly solutions.
segatti 2y ago
Can confirm. I am brazilian. Did a few onsites this end of year. Guess the only one I passed with flying colors? Uber, Brazil office. TC for mid level around 80k dollars. Now that the real devalued even more, maybe 75-70? Most of my brazilian friends living abroad also cleared said onsites, absolute majority rejected their offers(because they live elsewhere with a currency that has any sort of value). As a matter of fact, Uber is struggling to fill their vacancies around Brazil. Everyone that can clear said interview are already in Europe/US. So you're only left off with the people that actually want to be closer to their families.
- namaria 2y ago
  Small nitpick but using 'said' as a pronoun everywhere makes your writing hard to parse.
chillingeffect 2y ago
>Poland Same here. At my last company, each missed milestone meant "fire an American, hire a Pole."
dachworker 2y ago
NYC is a much more attractive location than Warsaw, not just because of the salary, so I fully expect the open roles in NYC to be filled very quickly. I always wondered why American companies have offices in such unattractive locations. Last time I saw a company whose only European office was in Belgrade. Who are you going to convince to move to Belgrade to work for your company, lol? This is not like the US were all states speak English and have broadly shared cultures.
- admissionsguy 2y ago
  > Last time I saw a company whose only European office was in Belgrade Obviously this is done to hire local workers. In general, and especially in Europe, most people are not interested in moving away from their home country if they can avoid it, even if it means a vastly reduced earning and career advancement potential. Serbia in particular has lots of engineers with a phenomenal quality to cost ratio.
- LouisSayers 2y ago
  I went to Belgrade a few years back over Christmas by myself and had quite a good time. In particular, the Nikola Tesla Museum, free walking city tour, massages, and some cool bars. Everything was really inexpensive compared to say Germany, and the women over there... they are stunning! Of course it'd be different to live over there, but it really wouldn't be the worst place to end up if you were earning a decent salary. Only obvious downside for me was smoking in restaurants (I can't remember but probably bars as well). Not sure if it's still the same now.
- bdangubic 2y ago
  On a below-average US salary living in Belgrade your quality of life would be equal to a 7-digit salary living in the US. Not to mention that you would be in one of the safest cities in the World for women and children and generally would live better than Seinfeld on Park Ave :) and of course everyone speaks english…
  - dachworker 2y ago
    As I said in the other comment, I just don't think it would be a good experience when one is a foreigner. Maybe if you consider it as just an adventure. I personally think I would get bored and lonely very fast.
dzonga 2y ago
forget the faang companies - but just your rank and file VC funded startup - series b and up. most software engineering jobs are either in poland, india. so yeah ya'll folks are not hallucinating - jobs are gone. e.g https://www.rippling.com/en-GB/careers/open-roles https://www.rippling.com/en-GB/careers/open-roles - engineering. majority of non-staff roles in india with staff roles in the US.

by m_ke 2y ago

tiffanyh 2y ago

> was a CTO of a startup Could it just be, the more senior/executive level you are - the harder it’ll always be to find another comparable job. The funnel gets smaller the higher up you are.

misiti3780 2y ago

My company is hiring in ML, the position is remote, can you send me your resume?

cmalluise1 2y ago
My good friend is a sr ml research eng looking for remote work also
- misiti3780 2y ago
  OK, send them my way.
m_ke 2y ago
Thanks, I’m actually pretty far in the interview process with a bunch of companies now but would be open to learning more. My contact info is in my bio.

jarsin 2y ago

I could see outsourcing to Poland end up working out just as great as outsourcing to Ukraine did. Not saying it will happen tomorrow, but would not surprise me to see Russia go in there after they get a big chunk of Ukraine and slowly gain control of it's government.

bufferoverflow 2y ago
Poland is a NATO country. Russia won't attack Poland, they only attack weak countries. Even if they take over Ukraine, their next target would be Kazakhstan or Moldova or Georgia.
m_ke 2y ago
Putin would be asking for WW3 if he tried that and it would not end well for him. A ton of big tech companies opened large offices in Poland in the past few years. It’s starting to look like a pretty major tech hub. If you look at Google or Box job boards most of their open roles in Europe are in Warsaw.
- throwaway48476 2y ago
  WW3 only happens if NATO isn't bluffing about article 5. Given the lackluster response to Ukraine it doesn't look good for article 5 and Poland, which is why they're buying so many weapons now.
  - namaria 2y ago
    How does NATO response to an invasion on a non-NATO country bears on article 5 exactly?
bartekpacia 2y ago
At this point we all would have much worse things to worry about. Poland is a part of NATO.
- jarsin 2y ago

iExploder 2y ago

Hiring a lot in Poland and from what I know paying peanuts compared to US salaries, but still above the market rate in Europe, mainly because market rate for engineers in EU is nothing to write home about. It sucks for you guys, but its just the new reality. Engineering is dead end career unless you are top 10%, move on to management, or money doesnt play a role, but at that point you might as well go duck farming or become a carpenter.

bruce511 2y ago
It turns out that work-remotely can be done by non-US based workers for a fraction of the cost of US workers. So those lobbying for work-from-home, well, this is the natural endpoint of that.
- toomuchtodo 2y ago
  They would’ve outsourced regardless of remote or not. It’s all about cost. Employers are hedging after they felt they lost control during the “Great Resignation” and the labor cost pressures they faced from it. Remote also makes it too easy for workers to find other opportunities, versus being restricted to opportunities within a commute distance. Unless it’s offshore remote of course. This is not without peril due to structural demographics. You can only outsource so much. https://www.nbcnews.com/business/economy/hard-to-find-a-job-get-hired-why-november-2024-jobs-report-rcna183102 https://www.nbcnews.com/business/economy/hard-to-find-a-job-... | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42361817 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42361817 https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-09-18/us-faces-a-deficit-of-6-million-workers-in-less-than-a-decade https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-09-18/us-faces-... | https://archive.today/Lyr5t https://archive.today/Lyr5t
  - sunshine-o 2y ago
    > They would’ve outsourced regardless of remote or not. Absolutely > It’s all about cost. Yes and No... What is happening now in "tech" has happened before in other industries. Since the internet various service industries have outsourced, outshored, nearshored over and over all together and in different order. I would put immigration or even move to the public cloud in that bag of schemes. Unless those are very low level tasks the companies doing that don't really save money in the short and long term. This has been proven over and over in the last decades, but rarely admitted publicly. What companies try to hide by doing that are dysfunctions in management and HR (usually the people who won't get offshored). So yes it is about cost of mismanagement that need to be hidden with a very short term vision, usually to reassure shareholders. There is another layer to this that is still very taboo. There is an inability for our societies today to make people work together in a reasonably healthy and stable manner. This is why you will often hear about "toxic workplaces" or "great resignation". And casting those problems in economic terms to avoid talking about it lead us to bad and costly solutions.

segatti 2y ago

Can confirm. I am brazilian. Did a few onsites this end of year. Guess the only one I passed with flying colors? Uber, Brazil office. TC for mid level around 80k dollars. Now that the real devalued even more, maybe 75-70? Most of my brazilian friends living abroad also cleared said onsites, absolute majority rejected their offers(because they live elsewhere with a currency that has any sort of value). As a matter of fact, Uber is struggling to fill their vacancies around Brazil. Everyone that can clear said interview are already in Europe/US. So you're only left off with the people that actually want to be closer to their families.

namaria 2y ago
Small nitpick but using 'said' as a pronoun everywhere makes your writing hard to parse.

chillingeffect 2y ago

>Poland Same here. At my last company, each missed milestone meant "fire an American, hire a Pole."

dachworker 2y ago

NYC is a much more attractive location than Warsaw, not just because of the salary, so I fully expect the open roles in NYC to be filled very quickly. I always wondered why American companies have offices in such unattractive locations. Last time I saw a company whose only European office was in Belgrade. Who are you going to convince to move to Belgrade to work for your company, lol? This is not like the US were all states speak English and have broadly shared cultures.

admissionsguy 2y ago
> Last time I saw a company whose only European office was in Belgrade Obviously this is done to hire local workers. In general, and especially in Europe, most people are not interested in moving away from their home country if they can avoid it, even if it means a vastly reduced earning and career advancement potential. Serbia in particular has lots of engineers with a phenomenal quality to cost ratio.
LouisSayers 2y ago
I went to Belgrade a few years back over Christmas by myself and had quite a good time. In particular, the Nikola Tesla Museum, free walking city tour, massages, and some cool bars. Everything was really inexpensive compared to say Germany, and the women over there... they are stunning! Of course it'd be different to live over there, but it really wouldn't be the worst place to end up if you were earning a decent salary. Only obvious downside for me was smoking in restaurants (I can't remember but probably bars as well). Not sure if it's still the same now.
bdangubic 2y ago
On a below-average US salary living in Belgrade your quality of life would be equal to a 7-digit salary living in the US. Not to mention that you would be in one of the safest cities in the World for women and children and generally would live better than Seinfeld on Park Ave :) and of course everyone speaks english…
- dachworker 2y ago
  As I said in the other comment, I just don't think it would be a good experience when one is a foreigner. Maybe if you consider it as just an adventure. I personally think I would get bored and lonely very fast.

dzonga 2y ago

forget the faang companies - but just your rank and file VC funded startup - series b and up. most software engineering jobs are either in poland, india. so yeah ya'll folks are not hallucinating - jobs are gone. e.g https://www.rippling.com/en-GB/careers/open-roles https://www.rippling.com/en-GB/careers/open-roles - engineering. majority of non-staff roles in india with staff roles in the US.