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I don’t like ‘em. Bah. But then again I’m old now and have always been a bit too “trad” for even my own liking. If they prove popular, through, who am I to ju

I don’t like ‘em. Bah. But then again I’m old now and have always been a bit too “trad” for even my own liking. If they prove popular, through, who am I to judge?

gjsman-1000 2y ago
[flagged]
- RandomThoughts3 2y ago
  The stained glasses these are supposed to replace are from 1850. They are also approved by the French Catholic Church. The actual discussion in France is about the legitimacy of replacing intact windows even if pretty much everyone agree that the Viollet-le-Duc ones are completely uninteresting. No one is actually against the new glasses per se if it would have been a non story if they were put in place in place of destroyed glasses.
- aspenmayer 2y ago
  Have we traded the cathedral for the bazaar?
  - gjsman-1000 2y ago
    I think the security scares in Linux over the last few years, particularly with the xzutils incident, have shown that The Cathedral and the Bazaar has a significant amount of wishful thinking. It turns out that most open source projects don’t have any more eyeballs than those paid or volunteering to work on the code, in which case, the gap between open and proprietary isn’t very large at all. Because most open source maintainers aren’t paid, you could even argue there are less good eyeballs than proprietary software. I’m with Nikolai Bezroukov; who called it a fundamentally broken document decades ago; with many of its assertions based on a pseudo-religious faith. https://firstmonday.org/ojs/index.php/fm/article/view/708/618 https://firstmonday.org/ojs/index.php/fm/article/view/708/61...
- seszett 2y ago
  I don't understand why you would bring mentions of LGBT, pride flags or misogyny into this? These stained glasses are replacing relatively modern, abstract geometric patterns from the 19th century with figurative religious imagery on the theme of the Pentecost. I can understand why people don't like it, but... evil? The Nazis by the way, intended to destroy Notre Dame together with the rest of Paris.
  - gjsman-1000 2y ago
    I bring up misogyny because it has to do with the glass in question, and use the example of the pyramids, to show that my opinion is principle over message. Don’t tamper with history, good message or not, unless absolutely necessary. > The Nazis by the way, intended to destroy Notre Dame together with the rest of Paris. Hitler did; the Nazis on the ground refused.
- llamaimperative 2y ago
  What exactly is the "evil ideology" you're pointing to here?
  - gilleain 2y ago
    The sinister, malicious plot to change all the stained glass windows to other, different windows.
- vidarh 2y ago
  Managing to turn this into a matter of ideology over some false belief that this is "painting modern ideals on antiquity" is quite something. The replaced glass is not from antiquity but from 19th-century modernization. EDIT: 19th century, actually; 1800's.
uxhacker 2y ago
What is so sad about this is the windows don't need to be replaced. Original windows hold significant value. While modern replacements typically need replacement within 20-30 years, historic wooden windows can last centuries with proper maintenance. The craftsmanship in older windows often surpasses modern alternatives, making restoration a worthwhile investment for both historical accuracy and longevity. I restored 189 windows in my 200-year-old house in Poland rather than replacing them. The windows are fundamental to a building's character and historical authenticity. You can date a building by analyzing its window features. The older the house, the fewer and smaller the windows, often due to glass manufacturing limitations and structural needs. For instance, a 16th-century manor might have small, thick-glassed windows with irregular panes, while an 18th-century townhouse would show taller, multi-paned sash windows.
- vidarh 2y ago
  The "original windows" in this context are windows 700 years newer than Notre Dame that were themselves part of a significant modernisation, and only a small part of the windows of Notre Dame (about 5% of the windows are being replaced). The replacement windows are also made by a studio that has a history going back way past the windows being replaced, and a history specifically of restoring historic glass - I very much doubt they'll need replacement within 20-30 years. The gradual renewal over centuries of renovations and restorations is itself part of the historic legacy of Notre Dame.
- thatfrenchguy 2y ago
  > While modern replacements typically need replacement within 20-30 years This is complete bullshit you find on the internet though, there are "replacement windows" in my house that are 30 yold and nowhere near needing replacing.
- cvoss 2y ago
  You have many more important arguments to make against the cathedral's form and structure if it may not be changed, but rather preserved and restored only to its original character. What century does the cathedral belong to, by the way? 12th? 13th? 14th? 19th? ... There are several centuries of alterations you should revert before you even begin to object to the windows. And you can hardly expect your claim to be taken seriously that the windows will need replacing in 30 years. It's inconceivable that anyone associated with this singular project would make so foolish and transient an investment right now.
uxhacker 2y ago
You can sign a petition against the change here : https://www.change.org/p/let-s-preserve-viollet-le-duc-s-stained-glass-windows-at-notre-dame-de-paris https://www.change.org/p/let-s-preserve-viollet-le-duc-s-sta...
_DeadFred_ 2y ago
Agreed 100%. I love your phrasing. My initial repose was surprisingly too "trad" for my own liking. Doesn't seem to matter age or supposed wisdom, we are always a work in progress aren't we?
troupo 2y ago
The new designs are really close to "trad" designs of stained glass which often depicted scenes from the bible, saints etc. How is this concept: https://media.beauxarts.com/uploads/2024/12/web000_36qn6km.jpg https://media.beauxarts.com/uploads/2024/12/web000_36qn6km.j... worse than the existing windows: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ef/Notre_Dame_Cathedral-_Window_of_Chapelle_Saint-Clotilde_by_Eugene_Viollet-le-Duc.jpg https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ef/Notre_Da... ? For reference: https://www.gettyimages.se/fotografier/catholic-church-stained-glass https://www.gettyimages.se/fotografier/catholic-church-stain...

I don’t like ‘em. Bah. But then again I’m old now and have always been a bit too “trad” for even my own liking. If they prove popular, through, who am I to judge?

gjsman-1000 2y ago

[flagged]

RandomThoughts3 2y ago
The stained glasses these are supposed to replace are from 1850. They are also approved by the French Catholic Church. The actual discussion in France is about the legitimacy of replacing intact windows even if pretty much everyone agree that the Viollet-le-Duc ones are completely uninteresting. No one is actually against the new glasses per se if it would have been a non story if they were put in place in place of destroyed glasses.
aspenmayer 2y ago
Have we traded the cathedral for the bazaar?
- gjsman-1000 2y ago
  I think the security scares in Linux over the last few years, particularly with the xzutils incident, have shown that The Cathedral and the Bazaar has a significant amount of wishful thinking. It turns out that most open source projects don’t have any more eyeballs than those paid or volunteering to work on the code, in which case, the gap between open and proprietary isn’t very large at all. Because most open source maintainers aren’t paid, you could even argue there are less good eyeballs than proprietary software. I’m with Nikolai Bezroukov; who called it a fundamentally broken document decades ago; with many of its assertions based on a pseudo-religious faith. https://firstmonday.org/ojs/index.php/fm/article/view/708/618 https://firstmonday.org/ojs/index.php/fm/article/view/708/61...
seszett 2y ago
I don't understand why you would bring mentions of LGBT, pride flags or misogyny into this? These stained glasses are replacing relatively modern, abstract geometric patterns from the 19th century with figurative religious imagery on the theme of the Pentecost. I can understand why people don't like it, but... evil? The Nazis by the way, intended to destroy Notre Dame together with the rest of Paris.
- gjsman-1000 2y ago
  I bring up misogyny because it has to do with the glass in question, and use the example of the pyramids, to show that my opinion is principle over message. Don’t tamper with history, good message or not, unless absolutely necessary. > The Nazis by the way, intended to destroy Notre Dame together with the rest of Paris. Hitler did; the Nazis on the ground refused.
llamaimperative 2y ago
What exactly is the "evil ideology" you're pointing to here?
- gilleain 2y ago
  The sinister, malicious plot to change all the stained glass windows to other, different windows.
vidarh 2y ago
Managing to turn this into a matter of ideology over some false belief that this is "painting modern ideals on antiquity" is quite something. The replaced glass is not from antiquity but from 19th-century modernization. EDIT: 19th century, actually; 1800's.

uxhacker 2y ago

What is so sad about this is the windows don't need to be replaced. Original windows hold significant value. While modern replacements typically need replacement within 20-30 years, historic wooden windows can last centuries with proper maintenance. The craftsmanship in older windows often surpasses modern alternatives, making restoration a worthwhile investment for both historical accuracy and longevity. I restored 189 windows in my 200-year-old house in Poland rather than replacing them. The windows are fundamental to a building's character and historical authenticity. You can date a building by analyzing its window features. The older the house, the fewer and smaller the windows, often due to glass manufacturing limitations and structural needs. For instance, a 16th-century manor might have small, thick-glassed windows with irregular panes, while an 18th-century townhouse would show taller, multi-paned sash windows.

vidarh 2y ago
The "original windows" in this context are windows 700 years newer than Notre Dame that were themselves part of a significant modernisation, and only a small part of the windows of Notre Dame (about 5% of the windows are being replaced). The replacement windows are also made by a studio that has a history going back way past the windows being replaced, and a history specifically of restoring historic glass - I very much doubt they'll need replacement within 20-30 years. The gradual renewal over centuries of renovations and restorations is itself part of the historic legacy of Notre Dame.
thatfrenchguy 2y ago
> While modern replacements typically need replacement within 20-30 years This is complete bullshit you find on the internet though, there are "replacement windows" in my house that are 30 yold and nowhere near needing replacing.
cvoss 2y ago
You have many more important arguments to make against the cathedral's form and structure if it may not be changed, but rather preserved and restored only to its original character. What century does the cathedral belong to, by the way? 12th? 13th? 14th? 19th? ... There are several centuries of alterations you should revert before you even begin to object to the windows. And you can hardly expect your claim to be taken seriously that the windows will need replacing in 30 years. It's inconceivable that anyone associated with this singular project would make so foolish and transient an investment right now.

uxhacker 2y ago

You can sign a petition against the change here : https://www.change.org/p/let-s-preserve-viollet-le-duc-s-stained-glass-windows-at-notre-dame-de-paris https://www.change.org/p/let-s-preserve-viollet-le-duc-s-sta...

_DeadFred_ 2y ago

Agreed 100%. I love your phrasing. My initial repose was surprisingly too "trad" for my own liking. Doesn't seem to matter age or supposed wisdom, we are always a work in progress aren't we?

troupo 2y ago

The new designs are really close to "trad" designs of stained glass which often depicted scenes from the bible, saints etc. How is this concept: https://media.beauxarts.com/uploads/2024/12/web000_36qn6km.jpg https://media.beauxarts.com/uploads/2024/12/web000_36qn6km.j... worse than the existing windows: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ef/Notre_Dame_Cathedral-_Window_of_Chapelle_Saint-Clotilde_by_Eugene_Viollet-le-Duc.jpg https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ef/Notre_Da... ? For reference: https://www.gettyimages.se/fotografier/catholic-church-stained-glass https://www.gettyimages.se/fotografier/catholic-church-stain...