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I'm saying both Ukraine's surrender and the Russian pull-out are equally hard to do from their respective perspectives. Which is completely ludicrous, of cours

I'm saying both Ukraine's surrender and the Russian pull-out are equally hard to do from their respective perspectives. Which is completely ludicrous, of course. For Ukraine, "surrender" means accepting permanent occupation and subjugation. For Russia, it means they get egg on their face, basically. It will just go back to its corner and sulk for a while. Definitely very doable, as it's something they've done many times in the past. There's simply no comparison. And there's no symmetry at all between the two sides in this conflict.

klibertp 2y ago
I said: "from their respective perspectives" - that is, subjectively. You're talking about objective facts. I don't disagree with you, but you're also not (visibly) disagreeing with me: we're discussing two entirely different things. Objectively, an egg on your face is not comparable to subjugation. Subjectively, there might be people willing to die or kill at the mere sight of an egg - it would be dangerous to put an egg on their faces. Drawing a caricature of a prophet and killing the author of the caricature is objectively not equivalent or comparable. Subjectively, though, you'll find people willing to kill the author and get killed or jailed for life for it. People and societies have beliefs and values that differ. Without understanding the adversaries' beliefs, no agreement is possible. If no agreement is possible, the only way out is to eradicate one side. It might work out for Israel, but it is impossible in Ukraine. In any case, I just want people to stop killing each other. I don't think one-sided demands (no matter how objectively justified and no matter which side they originate from) will help end it. Russians won't "just" "simply" pull out, and Ukraine won't "just" surrender.
- peutetre 2y ago
  > Without understanding the adversaries' beliefs, no agreement is possible. Putin believes Ukraine is not a real country and Ukrainians are not a real people. No agreement is possible when that is his attitude. > I don't think one-sided demands There is only one side. This is one of the least ambiguous wars in history.

klibertp 2y ago

I said: "from their respective perspectives" - that is, subjectively. You're talking about objective facts. I don't disagree with you, but you're also not (visibly) disagreeing with me: we're discussing two entirely different things. Objectively, an egg on your face is not comparable to subjugation. Subjectively, there might be people willing to die or kill at the mere sight of an egg - it would be dangerous to put an egg on their faces. Drawing a caricature of a prophet and killing the author of the caricature is objectively not equivalent or comparable. Subjectively, though, you'll find people willing to kill the author and get killed or jailed for life for it. People and societies have beliefs and values that differ. Without understanding the adversaries' beliefs, no agreement is possible. If no agreement is possible, the only way out is to eradicate one side. It might work out for Israel, but it is impossible in Ukraine. In any case, I just want people to stop killing each other. I don't think one-sided demands (no matter how objectively justified and no matter which side they originate from) will help end it. Russians won't "just" "simply" pull out, and Ukraine won't "just" surrender.

peutetre 2y ago
> Without understanding the adversaries' beliefs, no agreement is possible. Putin believes Ukraine is not a real country and Ukrainians are not a real people. No agreement is possible when that is his attitude. > I don't think one-sided demands There is only one side. This is one of the least ambiguous wars in history.