4 ms·

> Alain Bertaud, the urbanist, recently said, “the big contribution of cities is randomness.” And he continues: “You don't know what to expect. You don't know w

by aylmao 2y ago

> Alain Bertaud, the urbanist, recently said, “the big contribution of cities is randomness.” And he continues: “You don't know what to expect. You don't know who you will meet. And, it's precisely because you meet people who are different from you, who have different ideas. Sometime even it could be obnoxious people. I think obnoxious people — I mean, what I consider obnoxious — are necessary in order to stimulate.” I've experienced the opposite too, having lived in both NYC and San Francisco: urban homogeneity, and even monocultures. Yes, San Francisco is very diverse in the origin of its people, but the people who move there tend to fit certain molds, regardless of their cultural background. New York might attract more varied "types", but the act of moving to NYC still tends to select for a certain socio-economic level, a willingness to make certain sacrifices, people with certain life-goals and expectations, etc. I surprisingly have found more diverse personalities and ideas in smaller places that are less selective (in price, profession, ideology, etc) to move to or to live in. Places where a software engineer might frequent the same gym as an insurance salesperson, an elementary-school teacher and a tattoo artist, even if (and perhaps because) they're all from there and didn't move in for a job.

donw 2y ago
This fits with my experience living in SF: people might look different, but if you were to be blindfolded and talk to a group of them, you would struggle mightily to pick out any substantial differences between individuals.
- everly 2y ago
  Sounds like you're thinking inside of a fairly small bubble. If you picked 10 people, at random, from the 800k residents, I assure you that there would be substantial differences. Off the top of my head, you might get SF State students, tech bros, Chinatown senior citizens who have never left an 8-block radius and don't speak english, Marina moms, Mission District multi-gen families. I mean, come on. Maybe if you were only picking from people working at tech cos, but even then my experience does not match yours.
  - lolinder 2y ago
    The point is that no one in practice selects a random sample of the people living near them. Everyone they meet is from some self-selected sub-group—the people who live close to X park, the people who work at Y place, the people who shop at Z store. And the larger the city, the more people there are nearby you who are like you, so your total variety experienced will be smaller unless you're actively going out of your way to go places that you don't normally enjoy. So while OP may be wrong about a random sample of people in SF, they're probably correct about the people that they know in SF. In a small town everyone shops at the same store, visits the same parks, works out at the same gym. There's only one library and a few restaurants, so there are fewer opportunities to self-select into smaller groups.
    - everly 2y ago
      I just don't agree (aside from the part about small towns, I guess, but that's not relevant to SF). If OP can't find differing personalities in a place like SF, it's a skill issue, sorry to say.
      - aylmao 2y ago
        > it's a skill issue, sorry to say. That's the point, isn't it? You need to try, and have both the determination and "skill", to find variety when the environment gives you homogeneity. I'm sure I could find an elementary school teacher, or an insurance salesperson to chit-chat with in SF or NY. I never tried, cause why would I? These aren't Pokemon to collect. It just so happens that my gym in the middle of Manhattan filters quite strongly for a certain income level, and thus age, but also profession, etc. In my current gym we all just go to the same class together. Next time I'm in SF or NY I guess I can invest the time and effort to join a facebook group to meet school teachers, if that's what we mean by skill here.
tarsinge 2y ago
Same when I lived in Paris for me, I feel more of that randomness in encounters the parent commenter talks about in my small rural (albeit touristic) town.
- pyrale 2y ago
  You're saying the average person from the XVIth and XXth district are the same? The VIIth and the XIIIth? From what I've seen from these large cities, the only reason people think that is that they remain in their small subset, which is large enough for them not to notice the rest. If you're so inclined, sure, your small rural town is too small to have more than one community, and so there will be a little bit of social diversity. But if you live in a large city and are willing or need to go out of your in-group, the diversity is much larger.
  - aylmao 2y ago
    > if you live in a large city and are willing or need to go out of your in-group, the diversity is much larger. There's a double crux here; Firstly, why would you? By sheer numbers I'm sure there's more school teachers, insurance salespeople and tattoo artists in NY than where I currently live. But while in NYC, why would I have gone out of my way to meet people with these professions specifically when there was plenty of people demanding my time in my circles already? Where I currently live, I just meet them at the gym. Secondly, this applies to the other side too. While in SF I once people went to a party with a group of people that was very into photography. I never saw them again. Thinking about their perspective, why would they have hung out with me again? We lived far from each other (Oakland vs SF), they had own clique, and I'm not really into photography. The pull was weak both ways. I don't share much with the insurance salesperson I met at the gym, but it's the daily routine that's led to a meeting point, without any side having to "try", chatting, etc. NYC has diversity by the numbers, but if you talk about an individual's perspective, there's very strong clustering leading to local homogeneity. SF isn't that big, so I'm not even sure if it has more diversity by the numbers compared to where I now live. But the filters leading someone to move to SF are strong, as is thus the pull to cluster with people that are very similar to you based on where you live, shop, workout, etc.
rors 2y ago
I wonder if the homogeneity has come from gentrification and high property prices. NYC might have been a crime-ridden dump in the 60s, but it was cheap enough that Andy Warhol could afford to rent a massive studio. And a modern day Leonard Cohen wouldn't be welcome in the Chelsea Hotel. Now you have to be a lawyer or work in finance to hope to even get a modest sized apartment in NYC.
- clayhacks 2y ago
  That feels like a big factor. I see far more engineers and techies in SF than artists and poets. Not sure how many artists could survive in the city when not only rent is so expensive, but almost all other goods are also more expensive (largely because the stores and their employees pay those high rents too).

by aylmao 2y ago

donw 2y ago

This fits with my experience living in SF: people might look different, but if you were to be blindfolded and talk to a group of them, you would struggle mightily to pick out any substantial differences between individuals.

everly 2y ago
Sounds like you're thinking inside of a fairly small bubble. If you picked 10 people, at random, from the 800k residents, I assure you that there would be substantial differences. Off the top of my head, you might get SF State students, tech bros, Chinatown senior citizens who have never left an 8-block radius and don't speak english, Marina moms, Mission District multi-gen families. I mean, come on. Maybe if you were only picking from people working at tech cos, but even then my experience does not match yours.
- lolinder 2y ago
  The point is that no one in practice selects a random sample of the people living near them. Everyone they meet is from some self-selected sub-group—the people who live close to X park, the people who work at Y place, the people who shop at Z store. And the larger the city, the more people there are nearby you who are like you, so your total variety experienced will be smaller unless you're actively going out of your way to go places that you don't normally enjoy. So while OP may be wrong about a random sample of people in SF, they're probably correct about the people that they know in SF. In a small town everyone shops at the same store, visits the same parks, works out at the same gym. There's only one library and a few restaurants, so there are fewer opportunities to self-select into smaller groups.
  - everly 2y ago
    I just don't agree (aside from the part about small towns, I guess, but that's not relevant to SF). If OP can't find differing personalities in a place like SF, it's a skill issue, sorry to say.
    - aylmao 2y ago
      > it's a skill issue, sorry to say. That's the point, isn't it? You need to try, and have both the determination and "skill", to find variety when the environment gives you homogeneity. I'm sure I could find an elementary school teacher, or an insurance salesperson to chit-chat with in SF or NY. I never tried, cause why would I? These aren't Pokemon to collect. It just so happens that my gym in the middle of Manhattan filters quite strongly for a certain income level, and thus age, but also profession, etc. In my current gym we all just go to the same class together. Next time I'm in SF or NY I guess I can invest the time and effort to join a facebook group to meet school teachers, if that's what we mean by skill here.

tarsinge 2y ago

Same when I lived in Paris for me, I feel more of that randomness in encounters the parent commenter talks about in my small rural (albeit touristic) town.

pyrale 2y ago
You're saying the average person from the XVIth and XXth district are the same? The VIIth and the XIIIth? From what I've seen from these large cities, the only reason people think that is that they remain in their small subset, which is large enough for them not to notice the rest. If you're so inclined, sure, your small rural town is too small to have more than one community, and so there will be a little bit of social diversity. But if you live in a large city and are willing or need to go out of your in-group, the diversity is much larger.
- aylmao 2y ago
  > if you live in a large city and are willing or need to go out of your in-group, the diversity is much larger. There's a double crux here; Firstly, why would you? By sheer numbers I'm sure there's more school teachers, insurance salespeople and tattoo artists in NY than where I currently live. But while in NYC, why would I have gone out of my way to meet people with these professions specifically when there was plenty of people demanding my time in my circles already? Where I currently live, I just meet them at the gym. Secondly, this applies to the other side too. While in SF I once people went to a party with a group of people that was very into photography. I never saw them again. Thinking about their perspective, why would they have hung out with me again? We lived far from each other (Oakland vs SF), they had own clique, and I'm not really into photography. The pull was weak both ways. I don't share much with the insurance salesperson I met at the gym, but it's the daily routine that's led to a meeting point, without any side having to "try", chatting, etc. NYC has diversity by the numbers, but if you talk about an individual's perspective, there's very strong clustering leading to local homogeneity. SF isn't that big, so I'm not even sure if it has more diversity by the numbers compared to where I now live. But the filters leading someone to move to SF are strong, as is thus the pull to cluster with people that are very similar to you based on where you live, shop, workout, etc.

rors 2y ago

I wonder if the homogeneity has come from gentrification and high property prices. NYC might have been a crime-ridden dump in the 60s, but it was cheap enough that Andy Warhol could afford to rent a massive studio. And a modern day Leonard Cohen wouldn't be welcome in the Chelsea Hotel. Now you have to be a lawyer or work in finance to hope to even get a modest sized apartment in NYC.

clayhacks 2y ago
That feels like a big factor. I see far more engineers and techies in SF than artists and poets. Not sure how many artists could survive in the city when not only rent is so expensive, but almost all other goods are also more expensive (largely because the stores and their employees pay those high rents too).