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> As more fabs open, the United States is also facing a shortage of engineers and technicians. levels.fyi says principle level engineers are making $86,000 ann

> As more fabs open, the United States is also facing a shortage of engineers and technicians. levels.fyi says principle level engineers are making $86,000 annually in Taiwan, with zero shares. $49,000 being the average for [software] engineers in Taiwan there will be a shortage at that compensation range, which they can solve with higher cash and amplify with shares and a competitively short cliff like Meta and others have, of 3 months or less.

magic_smoke_ee 2y ago
Basically 25% of what American SWEs make. I can only surmise the cost of living is much lower in Taiwan.
- yieldcrv 2y ago
  yeah of course, but many organizations have a rigid corporate ladder to overcome. this seems like one of them, and their many "cultural differences". they are incentivized to underpay americans, complain that they "can't" find talent, to ensure the relevancy of Taiwan but their arguments are weak and solved with compensation
  - j_walter 2y ago
    They are not solved with compensation...simply put Taiwanese in both the US or Taiwan will put in more hours and work harder regardless of pay. Will compensation get some US workers to work as hard...yes...but not enough for what is needed to expand the AZ plant and keep it running. The numbers in the OP are Taiwan salaries...AZ salaries are upwards of $140-150K (not including bonuses) for someone with <10 years experience. These are not SWE...these are mechanical, electrical and chemical engineers...not in competition with Google, Apple, Meta, etc.
    - mook 2y ago
      Yep, not that many top-tier talent in the US willing to be in the factory for the graveyard shift under high pressure. The lines run 24/7 and if anything is slightly wrong techs need to be already on site to go fix it, because it's crap tons of money for every second of downtime. That leads to a corporate culture where even R&D has similar pressures from your boss (because essentially you're always racing with the competing fabs).
      - pm90 2y ago
        Ive never understood this culture. This kind of operation could be achieved by having several teams of folks working in shifts so noone is working crazy long, no? It seems like the company is unwilling to invest in the manpower required to achieve that SLA? fwiw ive heard similar things about the fruit company.
        j_walter 2y ago
        They have 24/7 people on site, 4 shifts that cover the work...but those are generally techs in the US, which have associate degrees or less. In Taiwan they are generally engineers that work the 24/7 shifts.
- j_walter 2y ago
  They don't have that many SWE...so be careful on your comparisons. 95% of their engineers are non-SWE...and those engineering disciplines do not make 4X those salaries listed above.
- lifeformed 2y ago
  It is mostly, but real estate in Taipei is more expensive than SF.
MangoCoffee 2y ago
Let's get real. A lot of talent has gone into ad tech in the U.S.
ryao 2y ago
https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=United+States&country2=Taiwan&city1=San+Francisco%2C+CA&city2=Taipei https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?cou... > Cost of Living Including Rent in Taipei is 59.0% lower than in San Francisco, CA Salaries tend to scale with cost of living. The cost of living in Taiwan is lower than the US. The difference is particularly large if you compare Taipei, the capital where the cost of living is likely the highest, to San Francisco. Presumably, the salaries would be higher if they hire people from the US.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- siva7 2y ago
  Even if you adjust for cost of living, the pay is still significantly lower than US and somewhat lower than central europe.
drtgh 2y ago
By "we are facing a shortage of engineers and technicians" they really mean "we want to pay less to engineers and technicians". With the first type of statement, the industries are pursuing a call effect, an excess of demand, which translates into the second statement.

magic_smoke_ee 2y ago

Basically 25% of what American SWEs make. I can only surmise the cost of living is much lower in Taiwan.

yieldcrv 2y ago
yeah of course, but many organizations have a rigid corporate ladder to overcome. this seems like one of them, and their many "cultural differences". they are incentivized to underpay americans, complain that they "can't" find talent, to ensure the relevancy of Taiwan but their arguments are weak and solved with compensation
- j_walter 2y ago
  They are not solved with compensation...simply put Taiwanese in both the US or Taiwan will put in more hours and work harder regardless of pay. Will compensation get some US workers to work as hard...yes...but not enough for what is needed to expand the AZ plant and keep it running. The numbers in the OP are Taiwan salaries...AZ salaries are upwards of $140-150K (not including bonuses) for someone with <10 years experience. These are not SWE...these are mechanical, electrical and chemical engineers...not in competition with Google, Apple, Meta, etc.
  - mook 2y ago
    Yep, not that many top-tier talent in the US willing to be in the factory for the graveyard shift under high pressure. The lines run 24/7 and if anything is slightly wrong techs need to be already on site to go fix it, because it's crap tons of money for every second of downtime. That leads to a corporate culture where even R&D has similar pressures from your boss (because essentially you're always racing with the competing fabs).
    - pm90 2y ago
      Ive never understood this culture. This kind of operation could be achieved by having several teams of folks working in shifts so noone is working crazy long, no? It seems like the company is unwilling to invest in the manpower required to achieve that SLA? fwiw ive heard similar things about the fruit company.
      - j_walter 2y ago
        They have 24/7 people on site, 4 shifts that cover the work...but those are generally techs in the US, which have associate degrees or less. In Taiwan they are generally engineers that work the 24/7 shifts.
j_walter 2y ago
They don't have that many SWE...so be careful on your comparisons. 95% of their engineers are non-SWE...and those engineering disciplines do not make 4X those salaries listed above.
lifeformed 2y ago
It is mostly, but real estate in Taipei is more expensive than SF.

MangoCoffee 2y ago

Let's get real. A lot of talent has gone into ad tech in the U.S.

ryao 2y ago

https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=United+States&country2=Taiwan&city1=San+Francisco%2C+CA&city2=Taipei https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?cou... > Cost of Living Including Rent in Taipei is 59.0% lower than in San Francisco, CA Salaries tend to scale with cost of living. The cost of living in Taiwan is lower than the US. The difference is particularly large if you compare Taipei, the capital where the cost of living is likely the highest, to San Francisco. Presumably, the salaries would be higher if they hire people from the US.

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
siva7 2y ago
Even if you adjust for cost of living, the pay is still significantly lower than US and somewhat lower than central europe.

drtgh 2y ago

By "we are facing a shortage of engineers and technicians" they really mean "we want to pay less to engineers and technicians". With the first type of statement, the industries are pursuing a call effect, an excess of demand, which translates into the second statement.