5 ms·

Because keeping the bleeding edge in manufacturing to ourselves is not vital to our survival as a sovereign state

by jazzyjackson 2y ago

yieldcrv 2y ago
yeah but stopping China from invading China isn't either
- kayewiggin 2y ago
  China is in the beginning of a 30 year Great Depression, in no shape to invade Taiwan. Consumer spending in Beijing and Shanghai fell 20% y/y in November. Real estate prices have collapsed 50%, even in some parts of Beijing and Shanghai. Trump has filled the cabinet with mostly anti-China hawks, indicating large tariffs coming next year. Capital outflow from China increased to $45B in November, largest monthly deficit ever. China is pretty fucked.
  - Paradigma11 2y ago
    That does sound like a fabulous time to start a jingoistic war to flame the nationalistic sentiments and declare any dissenters traitors to the nation.
- azernik 2y ago
  It is for Taiwan
  - yieldcrv 2y ago
    and not going to be our problem for much longer, 2028-2030 can’t come fast enough the US is selectively getting involved in worldwide conflicts to deter China from invading China, and its awkward, with arduous contrived rationales to maintain its people’s support and once we get stateside semiconductors at low enough nanometers we wont have to do any of that any more I cant wait good thing there are 185 other countries that could care if they really did. this wont be controversial to point out, in the future. it will be a time period that made little sense.
    - azernik 2y ago
      The law in question that prohibits exports of the latest process node is Taiwanese, not American. So yes, it matters what their interests are. Regardless of whether you think it's a state, it is an entity with agency that makes its own rules that its companies (like TSMC) follow.
    - ebruchez 2y ago
      I am not sure if it is worth answering but here it goes anyway: 1. Taiwan is not China, any more than Ukraine is Russia, except if you believe all the propaganda coming from the mainland (or Russia). Ask any Taiwanese, and while many consider and appreciate a solid Chinese cultural heritage, they consider themselves independent and want nothing to do with China (except business). Newer generations of Taiwanese are even more independently-minded and consider themselves even more Taiwanese than the previous generations. 2. Even if for some reason you truly think that it is the same country or should be the same country, it is immoral to wish that a peaceful, independent, democratic, and open society like Taiwan's should be brutally attacked and absorbed by a war-mongering, authoritarian/dictatorial, opaque country. (Things could be different if mainland China was democratic, but it isn't, and won't be for a long time.) 3. Even if for some reason you are ok with the above, odds are that the difficulty and complexity of an attack on Taiwan would end up being extraordinarily costly for China (and Taiwan of course). It could lead to all sorts of escalations in the region, sanctions, the collapse of trade with China from the US and other countries, nuclear proliferation (see Ukraine considering developing nuclear weapons if they don't get security guarantees), and who knows what else.
      - squillion 2y ago
        > Taiwan is not China Taiwan might be considered a de facto independent country, but according to most institutions it's officially part of China. 1. Taiwan's official name is Republic of China (ROC): it regards itself as part of China, and the sole legitimate seat of China's government. It's true however that "it has not formally renounced its claim to the mainland, but ROC government publications have increasingly downplayed this historical claim". [1] 2. In 1971, the UN General Assembly Resolution 2758 "recognized the People's Republic of China (PRC) as 'the only legitimate representative of China to the United Nations'". [2] 3. Only 11 (tiny) countries officially recognize Taiwan as an independent country, i.e. maintain full diplomatic relations. [3] 4. The U.S. official position is that "The United States has a longstanding one China policy", and "we not support Taiwan independence". [4] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiwan#Foreign_relations_and_international_status https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiwan#Foreign_relations_and_i... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_General_Assembly_Resolution_2758_(XXVI) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_General_Assembl... [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_relations_of_Taiwan#Full_diplomatic_relations https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_relations_of_Taiwan#Fu... [4] https://www.state.gov/u-s-relations-with-taiwan/ https://www.state.gov/u-s-relations-with-taiwan/
rayiner 2y ago
Why is “vital to our survival as a sovereign state” the criterion?
- gavindean90 2y ago
  Because it is for Taiwan

Because keeping the bleeding edge in manufacturing to ourselves is not vital to our survival as a sovereign state

yieldcrv 2y ago

yeah but stopping China from invading China isn't either

kayewiggin 2y ago
China is in the beginning of a 30 year Great Depression, in no shape to invade Taiwan. Consumer spending in Beijing and Shanghai fell 20% y/y in November. Real estate prices have collapsed 50%, even in some parts of Beijing and Shanghai. Trump has filled the cabinet with mostly anti-China hawks, indicating large tariffs coming next year. Capital outflow from China increased to $45B in November, largest monthly deficit ever. China is pretty fucked.
- Paradigma11 2y ago
  That does sound like a fabulous time to start a jingoistic war to flame the nationalistic sentiments and declare any dissenters traitors to the nation.
azernik 2y ago
It is for Taiwan
- yieldcrv 2y ago
  and not going to be our problem for much longer, 2028-2030 can’t come fast enough the US is selectively getting involved in worldwide conflicts to deter China from invading China, and its awkward, with arduous contrived rationales to maintain its people’s support and once we get stateside semiconductors at low enough nanometers we wont have to do any of that any more I cant wait good thing there are 185 other countries that could care if they really did. this wont be controversial to point out, in the future. it will be a time period that made little sense.
  - azernik 2y ago
    The law in question that prohibits exports of the latest process node is Taiwanese, not American. So yes, it matters what their interests are. Regardless of whether you think it's a state, it is an entity with agency that makes its own rules that its companies (like TSMC) follow.
  - ebruchez 2y ago
    I am not sure if it is worth answering but here it goes anyway: 1. Taiwan is not China, any more than Ukraine is Russia, except if you believe all the propaganda coming from the mainland (or Russia). Ask any Taiwanese, and while many consider and appreciate a solid Chinese cultural heritage, they consider themselves independent and want nothing to do with China (except business). Newer generations of Taiwanese are even more independently-minded and consider themselves even more Taiwanese than the previous generations. 2. Even if for some reason you truly think that it is the same country or should be the same country, it is immoral to wish that a peaceful, independent, democratic, and open society like Taiwan's should be brutally attacked and absorbed by a war-mongering, authoritarian/dictatorial, opaque country. (Things could be different if mainland China was democratic, but it isn't, and won't be for a long time.) 3. Even if for some reason you are ok with the above, odds are that the difficulty and complexity of an attack on Taiwan would end up being extraordinarily costly for China (and Taiwan of course). It could lead to all sorts of escalations in the region, sanctions, the collapse of trade with China from the US and other countries, nuclear proliferation (see Ukraine considering developing nuclear weapons if they don't get security guarantees), and who knows what else.
    - squillion 2y ago
      > Taiwan is not China Taiwan might be considered a de facto independent country, but according to most institutions it's officially part of China. 1. Taiwan's official name is Republic of China (ROC): it regards itself as part of China, and the sole legitimate seat of China's government. It's true however that "it has not formally renounced its claim to the mainland, but ROC government publications have increasingly downplayed this historical claim". [1] 2. In 1971, the UN General Assembly Resolution 2758 "recognized the People's Republic of China (PRC) as 'the only legitimate representative of China to the United Nations'". [2] 3. Only 11 (tiny) countries officially recognize Taiwan as an independent country, i.e. maintain full diplomatic relations. [3] 4. The U.S. official position is that "The United States has a longstanding one China policy", and "we not support Taiwan independence". [4] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiwan#Foreign_relations_and_international_status https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiwan#Foreign_relations_and_i... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_General_Assembly_Resolution_2758_(XXVI) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_General_Assembl... [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_relations_of_Taiwan#Full_diplomatic_relations https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_relations_of_Taiwan#Fu... [4] https://www.state.gov/u-s-relations-with-taiwan/ https://www.state.gov/u-s-relations-with-taiwan/

rayiner 2y ago

Why is “vital to our survival as a sovereign state” the criterion?

gavindean90 2y ago
Because it is for Taiwan