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>I do expect the next comment would be something like "work is a path to godliness" And you think these kinds of maxims formed out of vacuums? They are the kin

>I do expect the next comment would be something like "work is a path to godliness" And you think these kinds of maxims formed out of vacuums? They are the kinds of sayings that are formed through experience re-enforced over generations. We can't just completely reject all historical knowledge encoded in our cultural maxims and expect everything to work out just fine. Yes, it is true that most people not having productive work will fill the time with frivolous or destructive ends. Modernity does not mean we've somehow transcended our historical past.

EMIRELADERO 2y ago
> They are the kinds of sayings that are formed through experience re-enforced over generations. Sure, but the whole point is that the conditions that led to those sayings would no longer be there. Put a different way: those sayings and attitudes were necessary in the first place because society needed people to work in order to sustain itself. In a system where individual human work is no longer necessary, of what use is that cultural attitude?
- hackinthebochs 2y ago
  It wasn't just about getting people to work, but keeping people from degenerate and/or anti-social behavior. Probably the single biggest factor in the success of a society is channeling young adult male behavior towards productive ends. Getting them to work is part of it, but also keeping them from destructive behavior. In a world where basic needs are provided for automatically, status-seeking behavior doesn't evaporate, it just no longer has a productive direction that anyone can make use of. Now we have idle young men at the peak of their status-seeking behavior with little productive avenues available to them. It's not hard to predict this doesn't end well. Beyond the issues of young males, there's many other ways for degenerate behavior to cause problems. Drinking, gambling, drugs, being a general nuisance, all these things will skyrocket if people have endless time to fill. Just during the pandemic, we saw the growth of roving gangs riding ATVs in some cities causing a serious disturbance. Some cities now have a culture of teenagers hijacking cars. What happens to these people who are on the brink when they no longer see the need to go to school because their basic needs are met? Nothing good, that's for sure.
  - EMIRELADERO 2y ago
    What exactly do you think would happen? Usually wars are about resources. When resource distribution stops being a problem (i.e, anyone can live like a king just by existing), where exactly does a problem manifest? All the "degenerate activities" you mentioned are a problem in the first place because in a scarcity-based society they slow down/prevent people from working, therefore society is worse off. That logic makes no sense in a world where people don't need to put a single drop of effort for society to function well.
    - hackinthebochs 2y ago
      >All the "degenerate activities" you mentioned are a problem in the first place because in a scarcity-based society they slow down/prevent people from working This is a weird take. Families are worse off if a parent has an addiction because it potentially makes their lives a living hell. Everyone is worse off if people feel unsafe because of a degenerate sub-culture that glorifies things like hijacking cars. People who don't behave in predictable ways create low-trust environments which impacts everyone.
      - EMIRELADERO 2y ago
        I would say that those attitudes are 99% caused by resource-related issues. There's a reason why drug abuse (and antisocial behavior generally) is mostly found among the lower classes. If I could pick between the world we are in now and one where all the problems societies face that are related, directly or indirectly, to the distribution of resources are eliminated, I would pick the latter in a heartbeat. The "price to pay" in the form of a possible uptick in "degeneracy" during the first few months/years is worth it, not to mention that I doubt that problem would arise at all.
        hackinthebochs 2y ago
        It's a dangerous fantasy to think that all societal problems are caused by uneven distribution of wealth and that they will be solved by redistribution. No, some people just aren't psychologically suited to the modern world, whether that involves delaying gratification or rejecting low effort, high dopamine stimulation. The structure involved in necessary work and the social structures that lead people down productive paths are one way we collectively cope with the incongruence between our society and our psychology. Take away these structures and the results have the potential to be massively destabilizing.
Hasu 2y ago
> And you think these kinds of maxims formed out of vacuums? Do you think they've always existed in all human cultures throughout time? The pro-work ethic is fairly new in human civilization. Previous cultures considered it to be a burden or punishment, not the source of moral virtue. > Yes, it is true that most people not having productive work will fill the time with frivolous or destructive ends. And that's fine! A lot of people fill their time at work with frivolous or destructive ends, whether on their own or at the behest of their employer. Not all work is productive. Not all work is good. It isn't inherently virtuous and its lack is not inherently vicious.
cortesoft 2y ago
> And you think these kinds of maxims formed out of vacuums? No, they formed in societies where it WAS necessary for most people to work in order to support the community. We needed a lot of labor to survive, so it was important to incentivize people to work hard, so our cultures developed values around work ethics. As we move more and more towards a world where we actually don’t need everyone to work, those moral values become more and more outdated. This is just like old religious rules around eating certain foods; in the past, we were at risk from a lot of diseases and avoiding certain foods was important for our health. Now, we don’t face those same risks so many people have moved on from those rules.
- hackinthebochs 2y ago
  >those moral values become more and more outdated. Do you think there was ever a time in human societies where the vast majority of people didn't have to "work" in some capacity, at least since the rise of psychologically modern humans? If not, why think humanity as a whole can thrive in such an environment?
  - cortesoft 2y ago
    Our environment today is completely different that it was even 100 years ago. Yes, you have to ask this question for every part of modern society (fast travel, photographs, video, computers, antibiotics, vaccines, etc), so I am not sure why work is different.
    - hackinthebochs 2y ago
      Part of the problem is that we don't ask these questions when we should be. Social media, for example, represents a unique assault on our psychological makeup that we just uncritically unleashed on the world. We're about to do it again, likely with even worse consequences.
      - cortesoft 2y ago
        What would "asking these questions" entail? Would you have a committee that decides what new things we would allow? Popular vote? I get the idea, I just know see how you could ever actually do anything about this issue unless you completely outlawed anything new.

EMIRELADERO 2y ago

> They are the kinds of sayings that are formed through experience re-enforced over generations. Sure, but the whole point is that the conditions that led to those sayings would no longer be there. Put a different way: those sayings and attitudes were necessary in the first place because society needed people to work in order to sustain itself. In a system where individual human work is no longer necessary, of what use is that cultural attitude?

hackinthebochs 2y ago
It wasn't just about getting people to work, but keeping people from degenerate and/or anti-social behavior. Probably the single biggest factor in the success of a society is channeling young adult male behavior towards productive ends. Getting them to work is part of it, but also keeping them from destructive behavior. In a world where basic needs are provided for automatically, status-seeking behavior doesn't evaporate, it just no longer has a productive direction that anyone can make use of. Now we have idle young men at the peak of their status-seeking behavior with little productive avenues available to them. It's not hard to predict this doesn't end well. Beyond the issues of young males, there's many other ways for degenerate behavior to cause problems. Drinking, gambling, drugs, being a general nuisance, all these things will skyrocket if people have endless time to fill. Just during the pandemic, we saw the growth of roving gangs riding ATVs in some cities causing a serious disturbance. Some cities now have a culture of teenagers hijacking cars. What happens to these people who are on the brink when they no longer see the need to go to school because their basic needs are met? Nothing good, that's for sure.
- EMIRELADERO 2y ago
  What exactly do you think would happen? Usually wars are about resources. When resource distribution stops being a problem (i.e, anyone can live like a king just by existing), where exactly does a problem manifest? All the "degenerate activities" you mentioned are a problem in the first place because in a scarcity-based society they slow down/prevent people from working, therefore society is worse off. That logic makes no sense in a world where people don't need to put a single drop of effort for society to function well.
  - hackinthebochs 2y ago
    >All the "degenerate activities" you mentioned are a problem in the first place because in a scarcity-based society they slow down/prevent people from working This is a weird take. Families are worse off if a parent has an addiction because it potentially makes their lives a living hell. Everyone is worse off if people feel unsafe because of a degenerate sub-culture that glorifies things like hijacking cars. People who don't behave in predictable ways create low-trust environments which impacts everyone.
    - EMIRELADERO 2y ago
      I would say that those attitudes are 99% caused by resource-related issues. There's a reason why drug abuse (and antisocial behavior generally) is mostly found among the lower classes. If I could pick between the world we are in now and one where all the problems societies face that are related, directly or indirectly, to the distribution of resources are eliminated, I would pick the latter in a heartbeat. The "price to pay" in the form of a possible uptick in "degeneracy" during the first few months/years is worth it, not to mention that I doubt that problem would arise at all.
      - hackinthebochs 2y ago
        It's a dangerous fantasy to think that all societal problems are caused by uneven distribution of wealth and that they will be solved by redistribution. No, some people just aren't psychologically suited to the modern world, whether that involves delaying gratification or rejecting low effort, high dopamine stimulation. The structure involved in necessary work and the social structures that lead people down productive paths are one way we collectively cope with the incongruence between our society and our psychology. Take away these structures and the results have the potential to be massively destabilizing.

Hasu 2y ago

> And you think these kinds of maxims formed out of vacuums? Do you think they've always existed in all human cultures throughout time? The pro-work ethic is fairly new in human civilization. Previous cultures considered it to be a burden or punishment, not the source of moral virtue. > Yes, it is true that most people not having productive work will fill the time with frivolous or destructive ends. And that's fine! A lot of people fill their time at work with frivolous or destructive ends, whether on their own or at the behest of their employer. Not all work is productive. Not all work is good. It isn't inherently virtuous and its lack is not inherently vicious.

cortesoft 2y ago

> And you think these kinds of maxims formed out of vacuums? No, they formed in societies where it WAS necessary for most people to work in order to support the community. We needed a lot of labor to survive, so it was important to incentivize people to work hard, so our cultures developed values around work ethics. As we move more and more towards a world where we actually don’t need everyone to work, those moral values become more and more outdated. This is just like old religious rules around eating certain foods; in the past, we were at risk from a lot of diseases and avoiding certain foods was important for our health. Now, we don’t face those same risks so many people have moved on from those rules.

hackinthebochs 2y ago
>those moral values become more and more outdated. Do you think there was ever a time in human societies where the vast majority of people didn't have to "work" in some capacity, at least since the rise of psychologically modern humans? If not, why think humanity as a whole can thrive in such an environment?
- cortesoft 2y ago
  Our environment today is completely different that it was even 100 years ago. Yes, you have to ask this question for every part of modern society (fast travel, photographs, video, computers, antibiotics, vaccines, etc), so I am not sure why work is different.
  - hackinthebochs 2y ago
    Part of the problem is that we don't ask these questions when we should be. Social media, for example, represents a unique assault on our psychological makeup that we just uncritically unleashed on the world. We're about to do it again, likely with even worse consequences.
    - cortesoft 2y ago
      What would "asking these questions" entail? Would you have a committee that decides what new things we would allow? Popular vote? I get the idea, I just know see how you could ever actually do anything about this issue unless you completely outlawed anything new.