7 ms·

This is where I stand. I think corporations have assassinated whistleblowers in the past, maybe even the very recent past, but I don't see what they stand to ga

This is where I stand. I think corporations have assassinated whistleblowers in the past, maybe even the very recent past, but I don't see what they stand to gain here unless they were just sending a message to everyone else.

ethbr1 2y ago
I'd just point out that assassination doesn't have to be logical activity. Mohammed bin Salman and the Saudi government were aware of the repercussions of murdering Jamal Khashoggi, if it were found out, but went ahead and did it anyway.
- paxys 2y ago
  What repercussions? The goal was to send a public message to journalists and dissidents and they succeeded in doing exactly that.
  - delfinom 2y ago
    Sent me the message that Saudi Arabia remains a shithole.
  - ethbr1 2y ago
    The huge PR headache that continues to hang over Saudi Arabia to this day. Given their attempts to rebrand into a tourism and entertainment capital, mindshare of "that country and leader who tortured and murdered a journalist" isn't great. Specifically because not doing it, while a thorn in their side, wouldn't have destabilized the state. They did it because they could and they thought they'd get away with it.
    - pas 2y ago
      Data please. The default is that people don't fucking care. Especially tourists. MBS can organize music festivals every week and people would go if it's not too expensive. Qatar hosted the world cup in 2022, and guess who was picked just recently to host the cup in 2034. Yes, Saudi Arabia. Just this year, historic milestone. Yeey. :| https://www.unwto.org/news/un-tourism-applauds-saudi-arabia-s-historic-milestone-of-100-million-tourist-arrivals https://www.unwto.org/news/un-tourism-applauds-saudi-arabia-...
      - sofixa 2y ago
        > Qatar hosted the world cup in 2022 And saw relatively low amounts of tourists and views from Europe (top 2 in terms of footballing powerhouses, alongside South America which is generally poorer and less people from there can afford to travel). Just comparing the 22 World cup to the 24 Euros was night and day in terms of coverage, pubs showing the games, viewing parties, etc.
        pas 2y ago
        I'm painfully aware ... I lost the key to our short term rental somewhere around midnight in Tilburg during the Euro cup, one weekend before the finals and all the hotels/hostels were full in the city (and in Eindhoven and in Berga) ... of course our host's phone was on do-not-disturb, but at least it did not rain that night. Anyway, the point of sportswashing is not direct monetary profits.
  - ckw 2y ago
    Khashoggi was killed one year after the LV shooting, to the day. The theory is that MBS was staying at the Four Seasons at the Mandalay Bay (~6 floors above Paddock’s room) at the invitation of his cousin Alwaleed bin Talal, who owned the Four Seasons at the time of the shooting. The shooting was a distraction from an assassination attempt on MBS, or potentially a way of flushing him out. The conspiracy presumably involved disgruntled Saudi royal family members and businessmen, many of whom were arrested a month later (several also died in suspicious circumstances) including Alwaleed bin Talal, who was ultimately stripped of much of his wealth (~$20 billion) and influence. Presumably Khashoggi was involved, hence the symbolic date of his execution.
    - cluckindan 2y ago
      Do you have any legitimate sources for this information?
      - ckw 2y ago
        From O1: Summary of Confirmable vs. Speculative • Confirmed by reputable sources: 1. Dates of the events (Las Vegas shooting: October 1–2, 2017; Khashoggi’s murder: October 2, 2018). 2. Alwaleed bin Talal was a major investor in the Four Seasons (including the top floors at Mandalay Bay). 3. Saudi authorities arrested Alwaleed bin Talal and other elites in November 2017 in a sweeping “anti-corruption” operation. 4. Alwaleed bin Talal eventually lost significant wealth or leverage as a result of that crackdown, though precise figures remain undisclosed. • Not confirmed / purely speculative: 1. MBS staying in the Four Seasons above the Las Vegas shooter. 2. The Las Vegas shooting as a deliberate “distraction” from an assassination attempt. 3. Khashoggi being part of such a plot, or his execution date tying symbolically to the shooting. Re speculations unconfirmed by reputable sources: a good place to start would be rumble. There’s much more to this interpretation of events, and I’m not wed to it by any means, but it has the virtue of explaining countless strange or unexplained aspects of the shooting.
        cluckindan 2y ago
        So the sources are OpenAI training data and a far-right social media platform. It seems prudent to disregard this conspiracy theory as misinformation.
mentalgear 2y ago
"sending a message to everyone else" - is a pretty big incentive. Think about Boeing's whistleblowers. Even if they do not kill them directly, they bury them under so much legal fees that they are financially ruined for life, their career broken and through clandestine PR operations destroy even their social life and public image to make an example of them.
- slowmovintarget 2y ago
  Yep. Even a tiny fraction of a trillion dollars is a hell of an incentive for people of too little moral conviction.
- BadHumans 2y ago
  The only Boeing whistleblower I know of is the one that is dead.
  - stonogo 2y ago
    Would that be Joshua Dean or John Barnett?
    - BadHumans 2y ago
      John Barnett I believe. The one who showed up dead outside a hotel.
      - deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
      - SlightlyLeftPad 2y ago
        Well yeah. The point is as that there are currently two recent whistleblowers in regards to Boeing. Both of them are dead.
      - blackeyeblitzar 2y ago
        Extra suspicious because his plan was to drive home that night to his family. The other side convinced him to stay for one more day of hearing, if I recall. And that night he stayed he mysteriously died.
pythonic_hell 2y ago
He was going to testify in a case involving openAIs illegal usage of copy right data and text. There’s a lot to be gained with his death.
- ghaff 2y ago
  Except no one really disputes that training on copyrighted data and text is going on. The question is whether that is OK from a legal perspective. Which is a matter for the courts and the legislature.
  - foundart 2y ago
    Courts in the relevant jurisdictions don't work on "no one really disputes." It would have to be _proven_ in a court, which involves evidence and testimony, and if the whistleblower was in a good position to provide credible testimony then his death would likely make it harder to do prove copyright violations have taken place.
    - tiahura 2y ago
      Courts in the relevant jurisdictions don't work on "no one really disputes." It’s called a Motion for Summary Judgment.
    - ghaff 2y ago
      I'm pretty sure any competent lawyer would stipulate that, in many/most cases, training is happening on copyrighted information. I'm also pretty sure that OpenAI is not arguing that all their training data is either licensed or they own the copyrights to. (Some companies, perhaps Adobe?, have been more conservative.) Perhaps I'm wrong. But I haven't heard that argument publicly and I would need to be convinced.
      - HeatrayEnjoyer 2y ago
        Discovering certain types of data were gathered and used would be much worse. Training on CNN and Netflix content = i sleep Training on private personal and corporate inboxes, medical records, and illegal content, purchased from blackhat data brokers = real shit A Kenyan data labeler famously cut ties with Openai after Openai asked them to gather CSAM content.
whimsicalism 2y ago
i'm skeptical that any corporation worth more than a billion has assassinated someone in the US in the last 50 years.
- yeeetz 2y ago
  I'd be more surprised if they haven't.
  - whimsicalism 2y ago
    well that's you. personally, having worked in many billion dollar corporations - i simply don't see who the stakeholder who would be invested + capable of carrying it out. i would also expect to see a tail of failed/botched/uncovered attempts even if the vast majority were executed perfectly. certainly, if i'm a billionaire owner, i'm not hiring a hitman
  - dmix 2y ago
    Of course people believe this, they were raised on the hundreds of movies and netflix series where this is a common plotline. Most of our worldviews are heavily influenced by the fantasies of unchecked elite power systems above law enforcement and an unlimited pool of elite criminals for hire. IRL companies barely release public statements without consulting lawyers for fear of minor risk and any criminal willing to do murder-for-hire is likely to be unstable, sloppy, have a history of crime and likely to get arrested in the future, and/or blackmail the company the second they fall on hard times.
    - mrcode007 2y ago
      https://www.npr.org/2024/06/18/nx-s1-5003768/chiquita-is-ordered-to-pay-millions-to-families-of-death-squad-victims-in-colombia https://www.npr.org/2024/06/18/nx-s1-5003768/chiquita-is-ord...
- wahnfrieden 2y ago
  The only undisputed cases of >$1b US corporations assassinating individuals in the last 50 (or 25) years have been abroad

ethbr1 2y ago

I'd just point out that assassination doesn't have to be logical activity. Mohammed bin Salman and the Saudi government were aware of the repercussions of murdering Jamal Khashoggi, if it were found out, but went ahead and did it anyway.

paxys 2y ago
What repercussions? The goal was to send a public message to journalists and dissidents and they succeeded in doing exactly that.
- delfinom 2y ago
  Sent me the message that Saudi Arabia remains a shithole.
- ethbr1 2y ago
  The huge PR headache that continues to hang over Saudi Arabia to this day. Given their attempts to rebrand into a tourism and entertainment capital, mindshare of "that country and leader who tortured and murdered a journalist" isn't great. Specifically because not doing it, while a thorn in their side, wouldn't have destabilized the state. They did it because they could and they thought they'd get away with it.
  - pas 2y ago
    Data please. The default is that people don't fucking care. Especially tourists. MBS can organize music festivals every week and people would go if it's not too expensive. Qatar hosted the world cup in 2022, and guess who was picked just recently to host the cup in 2034. Yes, Saudi Arabia. Just this year, historic milestone. Yeey. :| https://www.unwto.org/news/un-tourism-applauds-saudi-arabia-s-historic-milestone-of-100-million-tourist-arrivals https://www.unwto.org/news/un-tourism-applauds-saudi-arabia-...
    - sofixa 2y ago
      > Qatar hosted the world cup in 2022 And saw relatively low amounts of tourists and views from Europe (top 2 in terms of footballing powerhouses, alongside South America which is generally poorer and less people from there can afford to travel). Just comparing the 22 World cup to the 24 Euros was night and day in terms of coverage, pubs showing the games, viewing parties, etc.
      - pas 2y ago
        I'm painfully aware ... I lost the key to our short term rental somewhere around midnight in Tilburg during the Euro cup, one weekend before the finals and all the hotels/hostels were full in the city (and in Eindhoven and in Berga) ... of course our host's phone was on do-not-disturb, but at least it did not rain that night. Anyway, the point of sportswashing is not direct monetary profits.
- ckw 2y ago
  Khashoggi was killed one year after the LV shooting, to the day. The theory is that MBS was staying at the Four Seasons at the Mandalay Bay (~6 floors above Paddock’s room) at the invitation of his cousin Alwaleed bin Talal, who owned the Four Seasons at the time of the shooting. The shooting was a distraction from an assassination attempt on MBS, or potentially a way of flushing him out. The conspiracy presumably involved disgruntled Saudi royal family members and businessmen, many of whom were arrested a month later (several also died in suspicious circumstances) including Alwaleed bin Talal, who was ultimately stripped of much of his wealth (~$20 billion) and influence. Presumably Khashoggi was involved, hence the symbolic date of his execution.
  - cluckindan 2y ago
    Do you have any legitimate sources for this information?
    - ckw 2y ago
      From O1: Summary of Confirmable vs. Speculative • Confirmed by reputable sources: 1. Dates of the events (Las Vegas shooting: October 1–2, 2017; Khashoggi’s murder: October 2, 2018). 2. Alwaleed bin Talal was a major investor in the Four Seasons (including the top floors at Mandalay Bay). 3. Saudi authorities arrested Alwaleed bin Talal and other elites in November 2017 in a sweeping “anti-corruption” operation. 4. Alwaleed bin Talal eventually lost significant wealth or leverage as a result of that crackdown, though precise figures remain undisclosed. • Not confirmed / purely speculative: 1. MBS staying in the Four Seasons above the Las Vegas shooter. 2. The Las Vegas shooting as a deliberate “distraction” from an assassination attempt. 3. Khashoggi being part of such a plot, or his execution date tying symbolically to the shooting. Re speculations unconfirmed by reputable sources: a good place to start would be rumble. There’s much more to this interpretation of events, and I’m not wed to it by any means, but it has the virtue of explaining countless strange or unexplained aspects of the shooting.
      - cluckindan 2y ago
        So the sources are OpenAI training data and a far-right social media platform. It seems prudent to disregard this conspiracy theory as misinformation.

mentalgear 2y ago

"sending a message to everyone else" - is a pretty big incentive. Think about Boeing's whistleblowers. Even if they do not kill them directly, they bury them under so much legal fees that they are financially ruined for life, their career broken and through clandestine PR operations destroy even their social life and public image to make an example of them.

slowmovintarget 2y ago
Yep. Even a tiny fraction of a trillion dollars is a hell of an incentive for people of too little moral conviction.
BadHumans 2y ago
The only Boeing whistleblower I know of is the one that is dead.
- stonogo 2y ago
  Would that be Joshua Dean or John Barnett?
  - BadHumans 2y ago
    John Barnett I believe. The one who showed up dead outside a hotel.
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
    - SlightlyLeftPad 2y ago
      Well yeah. The point is as that there are currently two recent whistleblowers in regards to Boeing. Both of them are dead.
    - blackeyeblitzar 2y ago
      Extra suspicious because his plan was to drive home that night to his family. The other side convinced him to stay for one more day of hearing, if I recall. And that night he stayed he mysteriously died.

pythonic_hell 2y ago

He was going to testify in a case involving openAIs illegal usage of copy right data and text. There’s a lot to be gained with his death.

ghaff 2y ago
Except no one really disputes that training on copyrighted data and text is going on. The question is whether that is OK from a legal perspective. Which is a matter for the courts and the legislature.
- foundart 2y ago
  Courts in the relevant jurisdictions don't work on "no one really disputes." It would have to be _proven_ in a court, which involves evidence and testimony, and if the whistleblower was in a good position to provide credible testimony then his death would likely make it harder to do prove copyright violations have taken place.
  - tiahura 2y ago
    Courts in the relevant jurisdictions don't work on "no one really disputes." It’s called a Motion for Summary Judgment.
  - ghaff 2y ago
    I'm pretty sure any competent lawyer would stipulate that, in many/most cases, training is happening on copyrighted information. I'm also pretty sure that OpenAI is not arguing that all their training data is either licensed or they own the copyrights to. (Some companies, perhaps Adobe?, have been more conservative.) Perhaps I'm wrong. But I haven't heard that argument publicly and I would need to be convinced.
    - HeatrayEnjoyer 2y ago
      Discovering certain types of data were gathered and used would be much worse. Training on CNN and Netflix content = i sleep Training on private personal and corporate inboxes, medical records, and illegal content, purchased from blackhat data brokers = real shit A Kenyan data labeler famously cut ties with Openai after Openai asked them to gather CSAM content.

whimsicalism 2y ago

i'm skeptical that any corporation worth more than a billion has assassinated someone in the US in the last 50 years.

yeeetz 2y ago
I'd be more surprised if they haven't.
- whimsicalism 2y ago
  well that's you. personally, having worked in many billion dollar corporations - i simply don't see who the stakeholder who would be invested + capable of carrying it out. i would also expect to see a tail of failed/botched/uncovered attempts even if the vast majority were executed perfectly. certainly, if i'm a billionaire owner, i'm not hiring a hitman
- dmix 2y ago
  Of course people believe this, they were raised on the hundreds of movies and netflix series where this is a common plotline. Most of our worldviews are heavily influenced by the fantasies of unchecked elite power systems above law enforcement and an unlimited pool of elite criminals for hire. IRL companies barely release public statements without consulting lawyers for fear of minor risk and any criminal willing to do murder-for-hire is likely to be unstable, sloppy, have a history of crime and likely to get arrested in the future, and/or blackmail the company the second they fall on hard times.
  - mrcode007 2y ago
    https://www.npr.org/2024/06/18/nx-s1-5003768/chiquita-is-ordered-to-pay-millions-to-families-of-death-squad-victims-in-colombia https://www.npr.org/2024/06/18/nx-s1-5003768/chiquita-is-ord...
wahnfrieden 2y ago
The only undisputed cases of >$1b US corporations assassinating individuals in the last 50 (or 25) years have been abroad