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I remember reading a joke once... What's the hardest European language to learn? Dutch. Why? Because every time you speak to them in Dutch they respond to y

I remember reading a joke once... What's the hardest European language to learn? Dutch. Why? Because every time you speak to them in Dutch they respond to you in English. It seems this is a way around that :-D (I don't actually think it's the hardest language but have found that yes, many Dutch speak English very well)

jjallen 2y ago
I am in Amsterdam right now and yes, I have yet to encounter a Dutch person that doesn’t speak very fluent English.
- contravariant 2y ago
  Oh yeah we only allow people to speak poor english in very public functions, like the head of state or the secretary general of NATO. It helps make the rest of us look good.
  - Muromec 2y ago
    I don't have an active memory of hearing either of them speaking poor English. Can't be true.
    - mi_lk 2y ago
      Clearly a dig at Mark Rutte...
- Freak_NL 2y ago
  As a Dutchman from outside of Amsterdam (you know, most of us): Hah! It's not even that they won't speak Dutch, often they can't! Sometimes you'll be hard-pressed to find someone capable of speaking Dutch in Amsterdam in some shops and restaurants. I've had people look sheepish/annoyed for presuming to use and expect Dutch in my own country.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - thijsvandien 2y ago
    Exactly that. You'll have a harder time not speaking English than not speaking Dutch.
  - lucb1e 2y ago
    It's not the norm anywhere outside of Amsterdam I'd say, but indeed, we had a server/waiter(?) in a Greek restaurant in Limburg yesterday who spoke German but not Dutch (who looked like they might be from Greece so I doubt they were simply from Germany). Especially since the pandemic I've been noticing this more. I like the culture mingling, all the better that the Limburgians see foreigners aren't scary and evil, but I'm curious if it's a trend or if I'm just randomly noticing it more
- melvinmelih 2y ago
  I speak Dutch fluently (born and raised) and even I have a hard time to speak Dutch with Dutch people. If you don't fit the profile (blond hair/blue eyes) they automatically assume you're a foreigner.
- lucb1e 2y ago
  Try a less touristy areas though, or people you don't normally interact with much (who will, conversely, also not have much experience interacting with non-Dutch people). My grandma couldn't say more than yes or no and understand not much more Working an IT job in a company of ~30 employees, someone joined who didn't speak Dutch. They would always excuse themselves and have lunch in their office¹ because it was very obvious that half the people just didn't really interact with the previously lively conversation anymore and were just biding their time to get back to work. Those who did speak, it worked but it's not as jovial as before. Sure, these people can all hold a presentation about their field of work, or order a sandwich with the correct words in England, but a spontaneous conversation about something random? It's a different set of vocabulary that you need every day, and far from everyone has that ¹ yes, we made clear they shouldn't do that and they should feel invited and part of the team. Many people did interact. And many of us made sure they were, at least, not having lunch alone in their office. Situation unfortunately remained as it was until I left
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usrnm 2y ago
It is a rather big problem, yes. You can absolutely get by without speaking any Dutch, I know people who have spent 10+ years in the country with just very basic knowledge of the language. Absolutely kills the motivation for a lot of people.
- andrepd 2y ago
  Also Dutch is, let's put it this way, not the prettiest language, nor the most useful. I'm sure that also kills plenty of motivation.
  - com 2y ago
    I’d disagree, on the pretty front. As I’ve learned it, I found it very charming and often surprisingly sweet - as an example idiomatic terms for urination and defecation are very funny: plassen (making a large pond) and klaaivormen (forming clay) - add to that a rather easy to rhyme language with a tendency towards charming and heartfelt emotional range, and the end result is quite nice. Add lots of domestic and Caribbean regional variation in the home countries, close sister languages: Vlaams (certainly in its higher form a very different register of the language than the Hollands standard form), Afrikaans and West-Frisk, Papiamento etc and you’ve got a very cosy (gezellig!) and dynamic inter-language community! The aggressive simplification of standard Dutch initially offended my tastes, but later I’ve found that particular discipline improved my English by accident and I’m now a fan of the sparse elegance and surprising nuance of that style …
    - wdb 2y ago
      I think you mean 'kleien' instead of 'klaaivormen'?
      - com 2y ago
        I’ve heard “kleivormen” in Hoorn, “klei maken” (a little more gross - no surprise given their famous export, disease swearing, I suppose) in Den Haag, and “kleien” below the great rivers. Edit: spelling, never ran into the NL word for clay in writing as an adult language learner not into geophysics, civil engineering or pottery

jjallen 2y ago

I am in Amsterdam right now and yes, I have yet to encounter a Dutch person that doesn’t speak very fluent English.

contravariant 2y ago
Oh yeah we only allow people to speak poor english in very public functions, like the head of state or the secretary general of NATO. It helps make the rest of us look good.
- Muromec 2y ago
  I don't have an active memory of hearing either of them speaking poor English. Can't be true.
  - mi_lk 2y ago
    Clearly a dig at Mark Rutte...
Freak_NL 2y ago
As a Dutchman from outside of Amsterdam (you know, most of us): Hah! It's not even that they won't speak Dutch, often they can't! Sometimes you'll be hard-pressed to find someone capable of speaking Dutch in Amsterdam in some shops and restaurants. I've had people look sheepish/annoyed for presuming to use and expect Dutch in my own country.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- thijsvandien 2y ago
  Exactly that. You'll have a harder time not speaking English than not speaking Dutch.
- lucb1e 2y ago
  It's not the norm anywhere outside of Amsterdam I'd say, but indeed, we had a server/waiter(?) in a Greek restaurant in Limburg yesterday who spoke German but not Dutch (who looked like they might be from Greece so I doubt they were simply from Germany). Especially since the pandemic I've been noticing this more. I like the culture mingling, all the better that the Limburgians see foreigners aren't scary and evil, but I'm curious if it's a trend or if I'm just randomly noticing it more
melvinmelih 2y ago
I speak Dutch fluently (born and raised) and even I have a hard time to speak Dutch with Dutch people. If you don't fit the profile (blond hair/blue eyes) they automatically assume you're a foreigner.
lucb1e 2y ago
Try a less touristy areas though, or people you don't normally interact with much (who will, conversely, also not have much experience interacting with non-Dutch people). My grandma couldn't say more than yes or no and understand not much more Working an IT job in a company of ~30 employees, someone joined who didn't speak Dutch. They would always excuse themselves and have lunch in their office¹ because it was very obvious that half the people just didn't really interact with the previously lively conversation anymore and were just biding their time to get back to work. Those who did speak, it worked but it's not as jovial as before. Sure, these people can all hold a presentation about their field of work, or order a sandwich with the correct words in England, but a spontaneous conversation about something random? It's a different set of vocabulary that you need every day, and far from everyone has that ¹ yes, we made clear they shouldn't do that and they should feel invited and part of the team. Many people did interact. And many of us made sure they were, at least, not having lunch alone in their office. Situation unfortunately remained as it was until I left

deleted 2y ago

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usrnm 2y ago

It is a rather big problem, yes. You can absolutely get by without speaking any Dutch, I know people who have spent 10+ years in the country with just very basic knowledge of the language. Absolutely kills the motivation for a lot of people.

andrepd 2y ago
Also Dutch is, let's put it this way, not the prettiest language, nor the most useful. I'm sure that also kills plenty of motivation.
- com 2y ago
  I’d disagree, on the pretty front. As I’ve learned it, I found it very charming and often surprisingly sweet - as an example idiomatic terms for urination and defecation are very funny: plassen (making a large pond) and klaaivormen (forming clay) - add to that a rather easy to rhyme language with a tendency towards charming and heartfelt emotional range, and the end result is quite nice. Add lots of domestic and Caribbean regional variation in the home countries, close sister languages: Vlaams (certainly in its higher form a very different register of the language than the Hollands standard form), Afrikaans and West-Frisk, Papiamento etc and you’ve got a very cosy (gezellig!) and dynamic inter-language community! The aggressive simplification of standard Dutch initially offended my tastes, but later I’ve found that particular discipline improved my English by accident and I’m now a fan of the sparse elegance and surprising nuance of that style …
  - wdb 2y ago
    I think you mean 'kleien' instead of 'klaaivormen'?
    - com 2y ago
      I’ve heard “kleivormen” in Hoorn, “klei maken” (a little more gross - no surprise given their famous export, disease swearing, I suppose) in Den Haag, and “kleien” below the great rivers. Edit: spelling, never ran into the NL word for clay in writing as an adult language learner not into geophysics, civil engineering or pottery