6 ms·

> With zero knowledge of how well-equipped the Russian military is, could they really be so far behind that they're unable to determine the difference between a

> With zero knowledge of how well-equipped the Russian military is, could they really be so far behind that they're unable to determine the difference between an commercial airlines and a high-speed missile If they exclude radar signature of commercial airliners, and let them fly, it will just make weapon makers start designing high-speed missiles with the radar signature of an airliner lol. There is a reason why a lot of military and sci-fi movies have the phrase “aircraft with radar signature of a bird” , anything that the military excludes or allows to pass off, just becomes the cloning target of missile makers under the tag of “camouflage”.

simoncion 2y ago
> ... it will just make weapon makers start designing high-speed missiles with the radar signature of an airliner lol. Well, the problem with that is that airliners are (relatively speaking) slow as fuck. A "high-speed missile" with the radar cross section of an airliner would be mind-meltingly obvious as a threat even to automated defense robots.
- perihelions 2y ago
  Iran mistook PS752 for a cruise missile [0]. It's not an impossible mistake; a cruise missile is (often) a subsonic, jet-powered object. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine_International_Airlines_Flight_752 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine_International_Airlines...
  - simoncion 2y ago
    Point of order: A cruise missile isn't a high-speed missile. It's (almost?) always a big, slow, lumbering bastard, as far as missiles go.
    - mapt 2y ago
      There are cruise missiles powered by ramjets that go significantly supersonic, but for the most part ballistic missiles are easier to use, longer range, and harder to intercept. The prospect of anti-air systems effective enough to pose ballistic missiles trouble in a "near-peer" non-nuclear conflict is recent. Both maneuvering-capable ramjet/scramjet cruise missiles and (the significantly easier) maneuverable hypersonic re-entry vehicles that launch ballistically, are the subject of recently fielded early models, active development & active testing because of that prospect.
    - BobaFloutist 2y ago
      Hence the term "cruise", which in every other context means not traveling especially fast.
- littlestymaar 2y ago
  Airliners aren't slow by cruise missiles standards: supersonic cruise missiles are few and far between, and most cruise missiles in fact fly roughly at the speed of an airliner (between 800 and 1000km/h).
  - simoncion 2y ago
    You're the second person to talk about cruise missiles in this subthread. The comment I replied to (and quoted in my reply) talked specifically about "high-speed missiles". Nearly all cruise missiles are most emphatically NOT that sort of missile.
lupusreal 2y ago
Stealth airplanes might have the radar cross section of a bird but they don't have the same flight characteristics (altitude, speed.) If you can manage to see it, you won't confuse it for a bird.
- red-iron-pine 2y ago
  put another way, your average seagull ain't cruising at 10000 feet @ 600 mph
  - CPLX 2y ago
    A flock of migratory birds could very easily be cruising at that height, and if in a fast moving jetstream or similar could be moving at hundreds of miles an hour when referenced to a ground based source.
    - lostlogin 2y ago
      That came as news to me. Some fly at 11200m/37,000 feet. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_birds_by_flight_heights https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_birds_by_flight_heig...
  - CoastalCoder 2y ago
    If you've ever dropped a French fry at the beach, you know that's not true.
PoignardAzur 2y ago
> it will just make weapon makers start designing high-speed missiles with the radar signature of an airliner lol. The weapons industry isn't that enthusiastic about blatantly violating the Geneva Conventions. There would be massive diplomatic costs to making, selling, buying or firing missiles with fake civilian transponders.
- lostlogin 2y ago
  When I look at current conflicts, I’m not sure that the Geneva convention features anywhere in anyone’s thought processes.
idunnoman1222 2y ago
You are describing a war crime.

simoncion 2y ago

> ... it will just make weapon makers start designing high-speed missiles with the radar signature of an airliner lol. Well, the problem with that is that airliners are (relatively speaking) slow as fuck. A "high-speed missile" with the radar cross section of an airliner would be mind-meltingly obvious as a threat even to automated defense robots.

perihelions 2y ago
Iran mistook PS752 for a cruise missile [0]. It's not an impossible mistake; a cruise missile is (often) a subsonic, jet-powered object. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine_International_Airlines_Flight_752 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine_International_Airlines...
- simoncion 2y ago
  Point of order: A cruise missile isn't a high-speed missile. It's (almost?) always a big, slow, lumbering bastard, as far as missiles go.
  - mapt 2y ago
    There are cruise missiles powered by ramjets that go significantly supersonic, but for the most part ballistic missiles are easier to use, longer range, and harder to intercept. The prospect of anti-air systems effective enough to pose ballistic missiles trouble in a "near-peer" non-nuclear conflict is recent. Both maneuvering-capable ramjet/scramjet cruise missiles and (the significantly easier) maneuverable hypersonic re-entry vehicles that launch ballistically, are the subject of recently fielded early models, active development & active testing because of that prospect.
  - BobaFloutist 2y ago
    Hence the term "cruise", which in every other context means not traveling especially fast.
littlestymaar 2y ago
Airliners aren't slow by cruise missiles standards: supersonic cruise missiles are few and far between, and most cruise missiles in fact fly roughly at the speed of an airliner (between 800 and 1000km/h).
- simoncion 2y ago
  You're the second person to talk about cruise missiles in this subthread. The comment I replied to (and quoted in my reply) talked specifically about "high-speed missiles". Nearly all cruise missiles are most emphatically NOT that sort of missile.

lupusreal 2y ago

Stealth airplanes might have the radar cross section of a bird but they don't have the same flight characteristics (altitude, speed.) If you can manage to see it, you won't confuse it for a bird.

red-iron-pine 2y ago
put another way, your average seagull ain't cruising at 10000 feet @ 600 mph
- CPLX 2y ago
  A flock of migratory birds could very easily be cruising at that height, and if in a fast moving jetstream or similar could be moving at hundreds of miles an hour when referenced to a ground based source.
  - lostlogin 2y ago
    That came as news to me. Some fly at 11200m/37,000 feet. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_birds_by_flight_heights https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_birds_by_flight_heig...
- CoastalCoder 2y ago
  If you've ever dropped a French fry at the beach, you know that's not true.

PoignardAzur 2y ago

> it will just make weapon makers start designing high-speed missiles with the radar signature of an airliner lol. The weapons industry isn't that enthusiastic about blatantly violating the Geneva Conventions. There would be massive diplomatic costs to making, selling, buying or firing missiles with fake civilian transponders.

lostlogin 2y ago
When I look at current conflicts, I’m not sure that the Geneva convention features anywhere in anyone’s thought processes.

idunnoman1222 2y ago

You are describing a war crime.