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Also this means Russia is the biggest killer of airline passengers?
by miohtama 2y ago
Also this means Russia is the biggest killer of airline passengers?
- varjag 2y agoIran had also contributed significantly in 2020. Although their regime ended up acknowledging their role, unlike Russia whose policy is bold faced lies.
- cyclecount 2y agoThe US has one of the largest contributions of all time: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655
- varjag 2y agoSure, although at the time missiles weren't the biggest killer of airline passengers.
- ZYbCRq22HbJ2y7 2y agoYou could argue the US is partly responsible for the 2020 disaster as well. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine_International_Airlines_Flight_752 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine_International_Airlines...
- throwawaysleep 2y agoNot very seriously. The Iranians shot down a Ukrainian jet with Russian missile. Blaming Americans for the stupidity of Iranians is ridiculous.
- ZYbCRq22HbJ2y7 2y agoMaybe not entirely seriously, but there is a direct causative path initiated by the United States that you can follow which lead to this result. Iran shot down this airliner after mistaking it for a cruise missile launched by the US, which was arguably a credible fear given the events of days prior. If the US didn't assassinate Qasem Soleimani (with a drone, near an airport), Iran wouldn't have made this terrible error, as they would not have made a retaliatory strike. Additionally, you can go even further back and argue that if the US didn't withdraw from the nuclear deal struck in 2015, none of these events would have taken place.
- varjag 2y agoYou can also argue if Iran did not have imperialist project over neighboring countries this event would've also not happened.
- ternnoburn 2y agoThat's not a counter to the parent's point. The parent is saying there are many critical factors, one of which was the US performing an assassination. Saying "there were other critical factors" both agrees with the parent post and doesn't counter the idea that the US was a factor.
- varjag 2y agoThis is absolutely a counter. There would be no assassination of an Iranian general in Baghdad had he not commanded the insurgency with the sponsored militias in Iraq.
- ternnoburn 2y agoThat sounds like "another critical factor". A chain of events led to this. The parent is saying "one link in the chain is US involvement", you are saying, a different link in the chain is Iranian involvement. Both can be true, and neither invalidates the other. You've done nothing to invalidate the parent's post because you haven't removed their link from the chain, you've just added other salient links to the chain. Stop treating blame like it's some simple, single element. It's a complicated, multi faceted chain of events.
- _2d30 2y ago> Maybe not entirely seriously, but there is a direct causative path initiated by the United States that you can follow which lead to this result. No, there isn't. There's a direct causative path initiated by Xerxes I when he launched the second invasion of Greece.
- wat10000 2y agoThere’s a direct causal path from any event to every event in its future light cone. You need more than “if not X then not Y” to blame Y on X. Otherwise you end up with ridiculous things like saying your cat saved your life by barfing on the carpet because cleaning it up made you late for your bus which crashed.
- idunnoman1222 2y agoIf country a starts a war and then country b defending itself accidentally shoots down a civilian airliner it’s ridiculous. It’s ridiculous. You’re saying it’s completely ridiculous to blame country a?
- dralley 2y agoIf you qualify country A's actions as "starting a war" then country B had started many dozens of wars themselves in the previous decade, and subsequent one.
- idunnoman1222 2y agoIrrelevant. You may as well walk back to the first mover and blame God.
- dralley 2y agoThat's basically my point. Ultimate responsibility lies with those who decided to fire a missile at a civilian airliner without doing any due diligence or applying common sense, not those who "created tension" or whatever you want to claim the US did in that situation.
- idunnoman1222 2y agoIf the iron dome accidentally shoots down in civilian airliner it’s ‘ridiculous’ to blame anyone other than Israel was your statement
- dralley 2y agoI was assuming you were referring to the Ukrainian airliner shot down by Iran in the aftermath of the Suliemani killing, which is an actual example and not a hypothetical one.
- talldayo 2y agoIt is. It's ridiculous when Israel hits aid workers with missiles and rockets, it's crazy when people wearing press jackets are killed even after communicating their position directly to military command and control. It's ridiculous when children die early, gruesome deaths because they sat next to a bad man with a pager at a Lebanese grocery store. It's not the 1950s anymore, accountable nations are expected on the international stage to understand what exactly they are shooting at. Israel is under much closer scrutiny than Russia because they represent modernized doctrine and should be using their technological superiority to enable more targeted strikes rather than more indiscriminate ones. Modern Russian warfighting tactics have been under serious scrutiny since the Afghan retreat, then again in the Gulf War, and then again now during the retreat from Syria. The only "clean" war Russia fought in recent years was Crimea, which was "won" by lying to the international community and breaking their trust forever. As evidenced by Ukraine, today's Russian republic cannot win a war with tactical prowess alone. The "special military operation" has devolved into IRBM fearmongering and rattling the nuclear sabre - Putin knows he's not the president of a world superpower anymore, he's a Tesco-branded Kim Jong-Un.
- _2d30 2y agoYou could also argue that the earth is flat and lots of people do. No one can rationally argue that that was partly the US' responsibility, though.
- IAmGraydon 2y agoExcept...the US isn't partly responsible.
- ternnoburn 2y agoNo clue why this is being flagged. It's a clear example of a SAM being used against passenger aircraft.
- isuckatcoding 2y agoBecause certain countries immediately evoke knee jerk reaction. Iran bad. US good. Simple black and white view
- ensignavenger 2y agoMaybe because that incident happened almost 40 years ago?
- lostlogin 2y agoRussia has a military with a lot of equipment that is at least that old. The US shooting down that airliner is also mentioned in that WSJ article that this thread is about.
- ensignavenger 2y agoYeah, it provides some history, and I wouldn't have flagged it personally, even though I don't think it was a particularly good response to the question. But then some one flagged my comment too, so maybe just trolls flagging everything.
- duxup 2y agoThe internal dynamics of different nations is always interesting to me. My understanding was that in Iran top leadership wanted to maintain the lie but there was a lot of resistance within the government, so much so they chose to admit it.
- throwway120385 2y agoIt tells us a lot about their internal power dynamics if their top leadership actually listened to the rest of the government on this.
- kergonath 2y agoIran is governed by factions that are occasionally aligned, but can have divergent interests. It’s very hard to understand recent Iranian history if one assumes that a single political entity is in control. I mean, Khamenei is nominally in control, but it’s not always that tight. Russia is very different: Putin clearly has absolute control over all government entities.
- dgfitz 2y agoWere that true, I doubt all the bribery and corruption would have been allowed to destroy their military equipment. I’m surprised they were able to shoot a plane down at all.
- kergonath 2y ago> Were that true, I doubt all the bribery and corruption would have been allowed to destroy their military equipment. I wasn’t precise enough. He does not control every individual specifically, just all organisations (as in, there is none that dares to contradict him, and the people in charge who do, don’t do it for long). That’s a consequence of the power structure. It is optimised to avoid factions and keeping dissenting voices under control, but micromanagement has its limits. To some extent, corruption also helps in several ways at the highest levels. This seems to be one of the reasons why they cannot stop it. It enables selective enforcement, and is an effective tool to get rid of people who get too powerful, too independent, or not obedient enough (there are many examples of this in the last couple of years: when Putin wants to reshuffle the government he finds corruption charges). It seems that this culture spread down the ranks and pervades the whole state. > I’m surprised they were able to shoot a plane down at all. If anything, a civilian aircraft is a sitting duck for anti-aircraft missiles: it has no decoys, no flares, no jamming or any kind of countermeasures. Surely, not shooting it down when firing at it takes some effort. Also, we don’t know how many missiles were fired.
- joseppudev 2y ago[flagged]
- qaq 2y agoRussia has destroyed 742 hospitals and clinics in Ukraine in many cases by using Shahed 131, Shahed 136 drones.
- sorenjan 2y agoAnd before that they bombed a few in Syria. It's ridiculous to try an whatabout Russias war crimes, they're known for leveling cities Grozny style.
- epistasis 2y agoRussia was even well known for targeting any area listed as a hospital in Syria and specifically bombing it, taking basic humanitarian protocol to protect civilians and using them for evil. Syrian doctors had to hide their locations to prevent the murder of their patients and themselves.
- dralley 2y agoThey literally used footage of one of their Iskander missiles striking a Syrian hospital in a highlight reel for the effectiveness of that missile. https://www.forbes.com/sites/sebastienroblin/2021/03/01/moscow-assures-world-its-iskander-missile-can-precisely-hit-a-hospital/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/sebastienroblin/2021/03/01/mosc...
- lostlogin 2y agoHonesty in adverting, who’d have thought?
- protomolecule 2y agoWhy not if all patients were evacuated long ago and the hospital was used by Syrian "rebels"?
- echelon 2y agoRussia (and the USSR) have shot down six passenger airlines so far. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeroflot_Flight_902 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeroflot_Flight_902 2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_Lines_Flight_902 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_Lines_Flight_902 3. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_Lines_Flight_007 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_Lines_Flight_007 (Killing US rep Larry McDonald.) 4. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siberia_Airlines_Flight_1812 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siberia_Airlines_Flight_1812 (Joint Russia-Ukraine mission, but it's purported that Russians coerced Ukraine into taking the blame.) 5. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malaysia_Airlines_Flight_17 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malaysia_Airlines_Flight_17 6. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azerbaijan_Airlines_Flight_8243 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azerbaijan_Airlines_Flight_824...