8 ms·

A sneak peek at Notre-Dame's new stained glass designs

46 points by prismatic 2y ago

gjsman-1000 2y ago
Modernist tomfoolery; we’ll break even international conventions on historical preservation for the sake of a moral anyone can learn by watching a Disney movie. If it even gets installed, watch in two decades as the old windows are returned once the banal novelty wears off.
- vidarh 2y ago
  Modernism as an art-style is substantially closer in time, to the windows being replaced than to the present day. Modernist art started in the late 1800's century, and lasted into the early 1900's. Eugène Viollet-le-Duc's restoration of Notre-Dame started in 1844, and Viollet-le-Duc is often hailed as a prominent theoretician of modernism.
- troupo 2y ago
  > Modernist tomfoolery; we’ll break even international conventions on historical preservation for the sake of a moral anyone can learn by watching a Disney movie. What are you on? You could, I don't know, actually look at the use of stained glass in churches and seen that the new windows fit squarely in the tradition of Catholic Church: https://www.gettyimages.se/fotografier/catholic-church-stained-glass https://www.gettyimages.se/fotografier/catholic-church-stain... Not to mention that the current glass from the 19th century was literally put there by "the father of modern/modernist architecture"
almostnormal 2y ago
Those windows are not just pieces of art to look at. They do also tint the sunlight, and with that the inside of the cathedral. The proposed new ones each use different colors, which is probably going to cause different parts to be tinted differently. Should they indeed be replaced, it's a hardeware problem. But by adding computer controled (depeding on sunlight conditions) tinted light bulbs it can be fixed in software.
breckinloggins 2y ago
I don’t like ‘em. Bah. But then again I’m old now and have always been a bit too “trad” for even my own liking. If they prove popular, through, who am I to judge?
- gjsman-1000 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - RandomThoughts3 2y ago
    The stained glasses these are supposed to replace are from 1850. They are also approved by the French Catholic Church. The actual discussion in France is about the legitimacy of replacing intact windows even if pretty much everyone agree that the Viollet-le-Duc ones are completely uninteresting. No one is actually against the new glasses per se if it would have been a non story if they were put in place in place of destroyed glasses.
  - aspenmayer 2y ago
    Have we traded the cathedral for the bazaar?
    - gjsman-1000 2y ago
      I think the security scares in Linux over the last few years, particularly with the xzutils incident, have shown that The Cathedral and the Bazaar has a significant amount of wishful thinking. It turns out that most open source projects don’t have any more eyeballs than those paid or volunteering to work on the code, in which case, the gap between open and proprietary isn’t very large at all. Because most open source maintainers aren’t paid, you could even argue there are less good eyeballs than proprietary software. I’m with Nikolai Bezroukov; who called it a fundamentally broken document decades ago; with many of its assertions based on a pseudo-religious faith. https://firstmonday.org/ojs/index.php/fm/article/view/708/618 https://firstmonday.org/ojs/index.php/fm/article/view/708/61...
  - seszett 2y ago
_DeadFred_ 2y ago
Not really a fan, I think that Notre Dame's appeal is it's age but holly heck the comments here (and in fact, my grose personal initial response internally of 'there they go forcing...') convinced me these are probably a good and needed change. Though I hope they match the original colors let in. WTF people? This is a building dedicated to a dude who said 'love everyone' and 'forgive everyone so you can see past judgement and instead see who they truly are and their worth'. Built to be a physical representation of the power/holiness of that ideal. It's easy to love the in-crowd. It's easy to love/understand those we know. But old boy's message was about more than that.
- moralestapia 2y ago
  [flagged]
highcountess 2y ago
[flagged]
- khazhoux 2y ago
  Are you reviewing some higher-res images of these new windows? Because I couldn't hardly see anything in the small images in the article.
- vidarh 2y ago
  Modernism was contemporary with Eugène Viollet-le-Duc, the creator of the windows being replaced, and he is in fact often described as a theoretician of modernism, and an inspiration for people like Le Corbusier - who specifically described Viollet-le-Duc as at the root of the movement - and Frank Lloyd Wright. You go on to call it "typically contemporarily narcissistic", but the architectural style of Modernism is not contemporary to us.
  - Reasoning 2y ago
    It seems bad faith to assume the OP is using the term modernism specifically to refer to the Modernism movement rather than the other use of the word "a practice, usage, or expression peculiar to modern times", per Merriam-Webster. Also, drawing the connection between Eugène Viollet-le-Duc and Modernism architecture to argue for removing Eugène's glass with a more modern style ignores his own motivation for his restoration which was to restore Notre-Dame to it's original gothic style. The reason Eugène's stained glass is there is because past canons had "modernized" it by replacing the original medieval stained glass with plain white panes.
    - vidarh 2y ago
      The new glass is more traditional in many way, such as in terms of its subjects. And there is no meaningful way of restoring Notre-Dame to an "original style" without making it unrecognisable to us - it consists of many hundreds of years of substantial alterations. While Viollet-le-Duc tried to find a compromise that worked, the result is that it is an eclectic 19th century mix of styles that never existed previously.
mrmincent 2y ago
Lots of complaints about the new windows, but just wait 100-200 years and they’ll be seen as historical items that shouldn’t be replaced as well.
- cjs_ac 2y ago
  As the article notes, the old windows only date back to the nineteenth century.
- idoubtit 2y ago
  The change was decided by the French president, Emmanuel Macron. The windows were dirty with the fumes but not damaged at all. But he wanted to add some modern art to the monument. If he manages to leave his own mark on Notre-Dame, the next president could do the same, and the windows won't stay long enough to become historical items.
lelandbatey 2y ago
Those designs seem... fine? The imagery seems quite traditional, the largest deviation seems to be the choice of strong unifying colors across whole windows, while having colors that aren't traditional to the rest of Notre-Dame, such as pinks and yellows. The windows they're replacing seem pretty boring and uninteresting, I can see why they're taking advantage of these renovations to also spruce up these windows with new designs (itself a many centuries long tradition). For reference, here's the windows that are being replaced: https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Notre_Dame_Cathedral-_Window_of_Chapelle_Saint-Clotilde_by_Eugene_Viollet-le-Duc.jpg https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Notre_Dame_Cathedr...
- troupo 2y ago
  I will add another reference: Photos of stained windows across churches https://www.gettyimages.se/fotografier/catholic-church-stained-glass https://www.gettyimages.se/fotografier/catholic-church-stain... The new designs keep the tradition of depicting people in stained glass
tptacek 2y ago
This is a fake controversy. There has always been contemporary art in Notre-Dame. The decision about the windows was made all the way back in 2021.
- idoubtit 2y ago
  A "fake controversy", really? The article mentions that the Venice Charter, which the France signed, "calls for the preservation of original work unless absolutely necessary" (from the OP). Several patrimonial organizations announced legal actions if the present glass windows are removed. From what I've read, the only actors in favor are changing the undamaged windows are a handful of politicians, from the State or the Church. All the professionals of the domain (old monuments) have rejected it, including the official Committee which unanimously voted against it. Even the Académie des Beaux-Arts, where the designated artist was studying, made its opposition public. The Guardian has a more detailed article: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/dec/28/ludicrous-bitter-row-erupts-over-plan-to-replace-original-notre-dame-windows https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/dec/28/ludicrous-bitt...
  - tptacek 2y ago
    It was not my claim that nobody has managed to manufacture a controversy over this decision, which echoes generations of similar decisions, and which was itself made over 3 years ago.
Reasoning 2y ago
"In such a project, one cannot act with too much prudence or discretion...A restoration may be more disastrous for a monument than the ravages of centuries." - Eugène Viollet-le-Duc
southernplaces7 2y ago
The winning artist complies with the right sociopolitically de jure checkboxes, but to her credit, she's at least reasonably talented artistically.
erur 2y ago
It’s odd to me how upset people get about this. Historic buildings seem very ledger-esque as changes and previous states get documented well and any modification isn’t truly erasing history but just appending to it. I doubt historians will have much trouble with some additions from our time. In any case, they would be a new historic artifact.
flovec 2y ago
A complaint from 2001 regarding the addition of the abstract stained-glass Windows of Cefalù in a Sicilian cathedral: > In most countries, this kind of modification, based on artistic whim, ceased to be a serious social force by the 1980s. Even allowing for delayed reaction and effect in Sicily, it is surprising that such a proposal could have been taken very seriously in a place that boasts a great historical and artistic heritage. > With these newest "additions," Cefalù Cathedral is being deprived of that opportunity. The scarlet beast has reared its ugly heads. From: http://www.bestofsicily.com/mag/art41.htm http://www.bestofsicily.com/mag/art41.htm If you get a chance, I highly recommend seeing them! They left a mark on me personally that no stained glass had previously. Some background and pictures: https://experiencesicily.com/2014/01/11/the-norman-cathedral-at-cefal-is-world-renowned/ https://experiencesicily.com/2014/01/11/the-norman-cathedral... https://www.flickr.com/photos/amthomson/2564316523 https://www.flickr.com/photos/amthomson/2564316523
almaight 2y ago
The rapid reconstruction of Notre-Dame Cathedral stands as a testament to the efficiency and expertise of Chinese engineering. Thanks to the advanced technologies, materials, and construction methods provided by Chinese companies, the rebuilding process has proceeded at an accelerated pace, demonstrating China's significant role in this global heritage project. This swift and effective contribution highlights the reliability and capability of Chinese engineering on the international stage. Therefore, it can be argued that the rebuilt Notre-Dame should bear a 'Made in China' tag, recognizing the pivotal role played by Chinese constructors in achieving such a remarkable feat within an impressively short timeframe.

46 points by prismatic 2y ago

Modernist tomfoolery; we’ll break even international conventions on historical preservation for the sake of a moral anyone can learn by watching a Disney movie. If it even gets installed, watch in two decades as the old windows are returned once the banal novelty wears off.

vidarh 2y ago
Modernism as an art-style is substantially closer in time, to the windows being replaced than to the present day. Modernist art started in the late 1800's century, and lasted into the early 1900's. Eugène Viollet-le-Duc's restoration of Notre-Dame started in 1844, and Viollet-le-Duc is often hailed as a prominent theoretician of modernism.
troupo 2y ago
> Modernist tomfoolery; we’ll break even international conventions on historical preservation for the sake of a moral anyone can learn by watching a Disney movie. What are you on? You could, I don't know, actually look at the use of stained glass in churches and seen that the new windows fit squarely in the tradition of Catholic Church: https://www.gettyimages.se/fotografier/catholic-church-stained-glass https://www.gettyimages.se/fotografier/catholic-church-stain... Not to mention that the current glass from the 19th century was literally put there by "the father of modern/modernist architecture"

almostnormal 2y ago

Those windows are not just pieces of art to look at. They do also tint the sunlight, and with that the inside of the cathedral. The proposed new ones each use different colors, which is probably going to cause different parts to be tinted differently. Should they indeed be replaced, it's a hardeware problem. But by adding computer controled (depeding on sunlight conditions) tinted light bulbs it can be fixed in software.

breckinloggins 2y ago

I don’t like ‘em. Bah. But then again I’m old now and have always been a bit too “trad” for even my own liking. If they prove popular, through, who am I to judge?

gjsman-1000 2y ago
[flagged]
- RandomThoughts3 2y ago
  The stained glasses these are supposed to replace are from 1850. They are also approved by the French Catholic Church. The actual discussion in France is about the legitimacy of replacing intact windows even if pretty much everyone agree that the Viollet-le-Duc ones are completely uninteresting. No one is actually against the new glasses per se if it would have been a non story if they were put in place in place of destroyed glasses.
- aspenmayer 2y ago
  Have we traded the cathedral for the bazaar?
  - gjsman-1000 2y ago
    I think the security scares in Linux over the last few years, particularly with the xzutils incident, have shown that The Cathedral and the Bazaar has a significant amount of wishful thinking. It turns out that most open source projects don’t have any more eyeballs than those paid or volunteering to work on the code, in which case, the gap between open and proprietary isn’t very large at all. Because most open source maintainers aren’t paid, you could even argue there are less good eyeballs than proprietary software. I’m with Nikolai Bezroukov; who called it a fundamentally broken document decades ago; with many of its assertions based on a pseudo-religious faith. https://firstmonday.org/ojs/index.php/fm/article/view/708/618 https://firstmonday.org/ojs/index.php/fm/article/view/708/61...
- seszett 2y ago

_DeadFred_ 2y ago

Not really a fan, I think that Notre Dame's appeal is it's age but holly heck the comments here (and in fact, my grose personal initial response internally of 'there they go forcing...') convinced me these are probably a good and needed change. Though I hope they match the original colors let in. WTF people? This is a building dedicated to a dude who said 'love everyone' and 'forgive everyone so you can see past judgement and instead see who they truly are and their worth'. Built to be a physical representation of the power/holiness of that ideal. It's easy to love the in-crowd. It's easy to love/understand those we know. But old boy's message was about more than that.

moralestapia 2y ago
[flagged]

highcountess 2y ago

[flagged]

khazhoux 2y ago
Are you reviewing some higher-res images of these new windows? Because I couldn't hardly see anything in the small images in the article.
vidarh 2y ago
Modernism was contemporary with Eugène Viollet-le-Duc, the creator of the windows being replaced, and he is in fact often described as a theoretician of modernism, and an inspiration for people like Le Corbusier - who specifically described Viollet-le-Duc as at the root of the movement - and Frank Lloyd Wright. You go on to call it "typically contemporarily narcissistic", but the architectural style of Modernism is not contemporary to us.
- Reasoning 2y ago
  It seems bad faith to assume the OP is using the term modernism specifically to refer to the Modernism movement rather than the other use of the word "a practice, usage, or expression peculiar to modern times", per Merriam-Webster. Also, drawing the connection between Eugène Viollet-le-Duc and Modernism architecture to argue for removing Eugène's glass with a more modern style ignores his own motivation for his restoration which was to restore Notre-Dame to it's original gothic style. The reason Eugène's stained glass is there is because past canons had "modernized" it by replacing the original medieval stained glass with plain white panes.
  - vidarh 2y ago
    The new glass is more traditional in many way, such as in terms of its subjects. And there is no meaningful way of restoring Notre-Dame to an "original style" without making it unrecognisable to us - it consists of many hundreds of years of substantial alterations. While Viollet-le-Duc tried to find a compromise that worked, the result is that it is an eclectic 19th century mix of styles that never existed previously.

mrmincent 2y ago

Lots of complaints about the new windows, but just wait 100-200 years and they’ll be seen as historical items that shouldn’t be replaced as well.

cjs_ac 2y ago
As the article notes, the old windows only date back to the nineteenth century.
idoubtit 2y ago
The change was decided by the French president, Emmanuel Macron. The windows were dirty with the fumes but not damaged at all. But he wanted to add some modern art to the monument. If he manages to leave his own mark on Notre-Dame, the next president could do the same, and the windows won't stay long enough to become historical items.

lelandbatey 2y ago

Those designs seem... fine? The imagery seems quite traditional, the largest deviation seems to be the choice of strong unifying colors across whole windows, while having colors that aren't traditional to the rest of Notre-Dame, such as pinks and yellows. The windows they're replacing seem pretty boring and uninteresting, I can see why they're taking advantage of these renovations to also spruce up these windows with new designs (itself a many centuries long tradition). For reference, here's the windows that are being replaced: https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Notre_Dame_Cathedral-_Window_of_Chapelle_Saint-Clotilde_by_Eugene_Viollet-le-Duc.jpg https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Notre_Dame_Cathedr...

troupo 2y ago
I will add another reference: Photos of stained windows across churches https://www.gettyimages.se/fotografier/catholic-church-stained-glass https://www.gettyimages.se/fotografier/catholic-church-stain... The new designs keep the tradition of depicting people in stained glass

tptacek 2y ago

This is a fake controversy. There has always been contemporary art in Notre-Dame. The decision about the windows was made all the way back in 2021.

idoubtit 2y ago
A "fake controversy", really? The article mentions that the Venice Charter, which the France signed, "calls for the preservation of original work unless absolutely necessary" (from the OP). Several patrimonial organizations announced legal actions if the present glass windows are removed. From what I've read, the only actors in favor are changing the undamaged windows are a handful of politicians, from the State or the Church. All the professionals of the domain (old monuments) have rejected it, including the official Committee which unanimously voted against it. Even the Académie des Beaux-Arts, where the designated artist was studying, made its opposition public. The Guardian has a more detailed article: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/dec/28/ludicrous-bitter-row-erupts-over-plan-to-replace-original-notre-dame-windows https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/dec/28/ludicrous-bitt...
- tptacek 2y ago
  It was not my claim that nobody has managed to manufacture a controversy over this decision, which echoes generations of similar decisions, and which was itself made over 3 years ago.

Reasoning 2y ago

"In such a project, one cannot act with too much prudence or discretion...A restoration may be more disastrous for a monument than the ravages of centuries." - Eugène Viollet-le-Duc

southernplaces7 2y ago

The winning artist complies with the right sociopolitically de jure checkboxes, but to her credit, she's at least reasonably talented artistically.

erur 2y ago

It’s odd to me how upset people get about this. Historic buildings seem very ledger-esque as changes and previous states get documented well and any modification isn’t truly erasing history but just appending to it. I doubt historians will have much trouble with some additions from our time. In any case, they would be a new historic artifact.

flovec 2y ago

A complaint from 2001 regarding the addition of the abstract stained-glass Windows of Cefalù in a Sicilian cathedral: > In most countries, this kind of modification, based on artistic whim, ceased to be a serious social force by the 1980s. Even allowing for delayed reaction and effect in Sicily, it is surprising that such a proposal could have been taken very seriously in a place that boasts a great historical and artistic heritage. > With these newest "additions," Cefalù Cathedral is being deprived of that opportunity. The scarlet beast has reared its ugly heads. From: http://www.bestofsicily.com/mag/art41.htm http://www.bestofsicily.com/mag/art41.htm If you get a chance, I highly recommend seeing them! They left a mark on me personally that no stained glass had previously. Some background and pictures: https://experiencesicily.com/2014/01/11/the-norman-cathedral-at-cefal-is-world-renowned/ https://experiencesicily.com/2014/01/11/the-norman-cathedral... https://www.flickr.com/photos/amthomson/2564316523 https://www.flickr.com/photos/amthomson/2564316523

almaight 2y ago

The rapid reconstruction of Notre-Dame Cathedral stands as a testament to the efficiency and expertise of Chinese engineering. Thanks to the advanced technologies, materials, and construction methods provided by Chinese companies, the rebuilding process has proceeded at an accelerated pace, demonstrating China's significant role in this global heritage project. This swift and effective contribution highlights the reliability and capability of Chinese engineering on the international stage. Therefore, it can be argued that the rebuilt Notre-Dame should bear a 'Made in China' tag, recognizing the pivotal role played by Chinese constructors in achieving such a remarkable feat within an impressively short timeframe.