4 ms·

Most of the comments here are missing the mark IMO. The primary reason why he got so much police harassment is because Croatia is a EU Schengen border country,

by lpapez 2y ago

Most of the comments here are missing the mark IMO. The primary reason why he got so much police harassment is because Croatia is a EU Schengen border country, the patrols here are much stricter than everywhere else, and the associated problems are much worse as well. I don't think it's entirely due to racism - if you were a border policeman, and you are tasked with bringing in people illegaly entering the country, what would you do seeing a person of color running on back roads near the border of an otherwise extremely ethnically homogenous country? For every case of someone who entered legally and got harassed, they probably bring in thousands of people which they are supposed to bring in (ie. entered ilegally).

jdietrich 2y ago
If you're travelling through sensitive border regions, attracting unwanted attention is unfortunately an occupational hazard. https://www.ndtv.com/offbeat/indy-nelson-man-who-visited-every-country-had-to-prove-hes-not-a-spy-4-times-6507497 https://www.ndtv.com/offbeat/indy-nelson-man-who-visited-eve... https://www.pap.pl/en/news/pole-wrongly-sentenced-life-congo-set-free https://www.pap.pl/en/news/pole-wrongly-sentenced-life-congo...
- immibis 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - FredPret 2y ago
    It’s not racist and you know that. They also would not want a white person without authorization. Also, in your border-free dreamworld, how far does this go? Can anyone / everyone in the world come live in your country? How about your city? How about your backyard?
    - jstanley 2y ago
      Country yes, city yes, backyard no. People within a country can freely move between cities but can't freely use private backyards. We're just saying it should be the same between countries as it is between cities.
      - FredPret 2y ago
        I’m saying it should be the same between countries as between back yards. The same logic that justifies national government with tax-levying and rule-enforcing power also requires national borders. (ie, a group of people own this area together and will vote to determine what is done).
        immibis 2y ago
        They do those things at a local level too but you're still allowed to move between cities.
      - lupusreal 2y ago
        In a world without borders, what's to prevent some wealthy Europeans from pooling their resources to buy up huge swaths of the Congo and doing colonialism, libertarian open borders style? Governments and borders are necessary.
        dragonwriter 2y ago
        Laws on land use that prevent “buying large swathes of land” from being equivalent to or enabling “doing colonialism”. Open borders does not imply absence of laws.
        lupusreal 2y ago
        That is naive. The wealth disparity between nations is so great that if borders were done away with, people from wealthy nations would be able to trivially outspend people in poor countries. Once they own the land and the businesses, political power is theirs. Meanwhile the people from those poor countries might try to do the same in wealthy countries, but wouldn't have the resources for it. It would be katastroika on steroids.
        immibis 2y ago
        Then they can be removed in two steps. First, allow people to come and work to get wealthy so they can compete with other wealthy people. Second, allow wealthy people to spend money.
    - immibis 2y ago
      They do, in fact, allow people from majority-white countries to come without authorization.
      - FredPret 2y ago
        The cause-and-effect here is “is your home country first-world / on a similar standard of living as us, and also not an enemy”. So Japanese and South Koreans are probably more welcome than Russians, say.
      - mantas 2y ago
        Some majority-white. As well as some non-white-majority.
  - dahart 2y ago
    > Saying that you can’t come into Europe because you’re African is still racism. Are you suggesting no countries in the world should have any border control? You weren’t born here and don’t pay taxes here is pretty different from you’re African, right? So why do you say racism and not discrimination? Why do you say African and not non-European? Phrasing Europe’s border policy as racism against Africans is misleading and escalating, rather than edifying. Let’s fix that: Saying that you can’t come into Europe because you’re not a European resident is discrimination based on country of residency that could look like racial discrimination if you’re not careful. In as much as, ahem, some government policies actually are racist, it’s true that border policy does discriminate based on country of residence, but this is not necessarily racist. Europe is not necessarily discriminating against Africans, it’s discriminating all non-Europeans, including China, Russia, America, the Middle East, etc., right? When people say racism it is often (usually?) referring to beliefs about other races being inferior in some way, or hate for other races. Racism typically means prejudice and antagonism combined with discrimination. Discrimination on its own without judgement may be necessary, and doesn’t mean there is any animosity or value judgements being made based on someone’s race.
    - kmeisthax 2y ago
      To summarize / strawman, "Europe isn't racist, it's xenophobic, get it right!" And to be clear, that's not wrong, but it's also a distinction without a difference. People will still feel discriminated against even if the source of that discrimination is different from what they named.
      - dahart 2y ago
        All countries have border policy including yours, this isn’t about Europe, or about Africa. Why do you assume border policy is xenophobia, and not, say, logistics and resource and tax management? Why would you jump to a conclusion this has more to do with race than with money or stopping crime?
        immibis 2y ago
        If it's logistics and resources and tax management, why doesn't it apply between cities?
aprilthird2021 2y ago
How can it not be entirely due to racism, if race is the only factor determining whether you stop someone who is jogging on the street in jogging clothes and likely athletic supershoes?
- wholinator2 2y ago
  Ya know, this is an incredibly interesting question. Because my instinct is to say that, if the patrols duty is simply to analyze anyone who stands out, and they do so in the proper channels without malice or harassment, then that would be the least racist possible scenario in which this occurs, some may say, not racist. But then even if the guard is kind and helpful, is the guideline "people who stand out must be questioned" racist itself? It sounds like yes. But then what justification do they have for that, is it genuinely that the vast majority of illegal crossings come from people who stand out? Or do most of them blend in, or is it just the stand outs that get caught, thus making it appear in data as if they're the problem and intensifying the patrols around them? Like the airplane problem. Then the hypothetical, what if it were true that the people attempting to harm your society singularly visually differed? Would that be racism, some strange "justified racism" or simply not racism? If you say, we are not prosecuting on race, but on propensity to crime. Well that starts to sound like some things I've heard in my country, which we believe is racist. Interesting questions.
  - johannes1234321 2y ago
    Well, the neighboring country to Croatia is Bosnia and Herzgovina. The ethnicy is similar and some from there also have motivation to enter illegally. Basing on race ignores those. Also turning it around: Is it right for somebody, like the runner, who legally entered to repeatedly be treated bad just because others who share skin color do bad?
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
    - em-bee 2y ago
      even better, the first check could have asked him for his route, and phone ahead to let their colleagues and especially the call centers know that he is coming. with a photo even. the reverse of a wanted poster. and if they had to deal with a lot of illegal immigrants in the area, the maybe could have asked him to wear something easily identifiable that someone else would not wear. maybe a number thing that's common for runners in a competition. part of the problem is not only that he is checked, but how he is being treated during those checks. i mean that's my experience in china. every interaction with authorities was extremely polite and friendly. even when it was an issue where i broke the law because i didn't register my new address in time. of course africans experience racism in china as well, so i can't say for sure that they would get the same treatment as me, but certainly not what this guy experienced in croatia.

by lpapez 2y ago

jdietrich 2y ago

If you're travelling through sensitive border regions, attracting unwanted attention is unfortunately an occupational hazard. https://www.ndtv.com/offbeat/indy-nelson-man-who-visited-every-country-had-to-prove-hes-not-a-spy-4-times-6507497 https://www.ndtv.com/offbeat/indy-nelson-man-who-visited-eve... https://www.pap.pl/en/news/pole-wrongly-sentenced-life-congo-set-free https://www.pap.pl/en/news/pole-wrongly-sentenced-life-congo...

immibis 2y ago
[flagged]
- FredPret 2y ago
  It’s not racist and you know that. They also would not want a white person without authorization. Also, in your border-free dreamworld, how far does this go? Can anyone / everyone in the world come live in your country? How about your city? How about your backyard?
  - jstanley 2y ago
    Country yes, city yes, backyard no. People within a country can freely move between cities but can't freely use private backyards. We're just saying it should be the same between countries as it is between cities.
    - FredPret 2y ago
      I’m saying it should be the same between countries as between back yards. The same logic that justifies national government with tax-levying and rule-enforcing power also requires national borders. (ie, a group of people own this area together and will vote to determine what is done).
      - immibis 2y ago
        They do those things at a local level too but you're still allowed to move between cities.
    - lupusreal 2y ago
      In a world without borders, what's to prevent some wealthy Europeans from pooling their resources to buy up huge swaths of the Congo and doing colonialism, libertarian open borders style? Governments and borders are necessary.
      - dragonwriter 2y ago
        Laws on land use that prevent “buying large swathes of land” from being equivalent to or enabling “doing colonialism”. Open borders does not imply absence of laws.
        lupusreal 2y ago
        That is naive. The wealth disparity between nations is so great that if borders were done away with, people from wealthy nations would be able to trivially outspend people in poor countries. Once they own the land and the businesses, political power is theirs. Meanwhile the people from those poor countries might try to do the same in wealthy countries, but wouldn't have the resources for it. It would be katastroika on steroids.
        immibis 2y ago
        Then they can be removed in two steps. First, allow people to come and work to get wealthy so they can compete with other wealthy people. Second, allow wealthy people to spend money.
  - immibis 2y ago
    They do, in fact, allow people from majority-white countries to come without authorization.
    - FredPret 2y ago
      The cause-and-effect here is “is your home country first-world / on a similar standard of living as us, and also not an enemy”. So Japanese and South Koreans are probably more welcome than Russians, say.
    - mantas 2y ago
      Some majority-white. As well as some non-white-majority.
- dahart 2y ago
  > Saying that you can’t come into Europe because you’re African is still racism. Are you suggesting no countries in the world should have any border control? You weren’t born here and don’t pay taxes here is pretty different from you’re African, right? So why do you say racism and not discrimination? Why do you say African and not non-European? Phrasing Europe’s border policy as racism against Africans is misleading and escalating, rather than edifying. Let’s fix that: Saying that you can’t come into Europe because you’re not a European resident is discrimination based on country of residency that could look like racial discrimination if you’re not careful. In as much as, ahem, some government policies actually are racist, it’s true that border policy does discriminate based on country of residence, but this is not necessarily racist. Europe is not necessarily discriminating against Africans, it’s discriminating all non-Europeans, including China, Russia, America, the Middle East, etc., right? When people say racism it is often (usually?) referring to beliefs about other races being inferior in some way, or hate for other races. Racism typically means prejudice and antagonism combined with discrimination. Discrimination on its own without judgement may be necessary, and doesn’t mean there is any animosity or value judgements being made based on someone’s race.
  - kmeisthax 2y ago
    To summarize / strawman, "Europe isn't racist, it's xenophobic, get it right!" And to be clear, that's not wrong, but it's also a distinction without a difference. People will still feel discriminated against even if the source of that discrimination is different from what they named.
    - dahart 2y ago
      All countries have border policy including yours, this isn’t about Europe, or about Africa. Why do you assume border policy is xenophobia, and not, say, logistics and resource and tax management? Why would you jump to a conclusion this has more to do with race than with money or stopping crime?
      - immibis 2y ago
        If it's logistics and resources and tax management, why doesn't it apply between cities?

aprilthird2021 2y ago

How can it not be entirely due to racism, if race is the only factor determining whether you stop someone who is jogging on the street in jogging clothes and likely athletic supershoes?

wholinator2 2y ago
Ya know, this is an incredibly interesting question. Because my instinct is to say that, if the patrols duty is simply to analyze anyone who stands out, and they do so in the proper channels without malice or harassment, then that would be the least racist possible scenario in which this occurs, some may say, not racist. But then even if the guard is kind and helpful, is the guideline "people who stand out must be questioned" racist itself? It sounds like yes. But then what justification do they have for that, is it genuinely that the vast majority of illegal crossings come from people who stand out? Or do most of them blend in, or is it just the stand outs that get caught, thus making it appear in data as if they're the problem and intensifying the patrols around them? Like the airplane problem. Then the hypothetical, what if it were true that the people attempting to harm your society singularly visually differed? Would that be racism, some strange "justified racism" or simply not racism? If you say, we are not prosecuting on race, but on propensity to crime. Well that starts to sound like some things I've heard in my country, which we believe is racist. Interesting questions.
- johannes1234321 2y ago
  Well, the neighboring country to Croatia is Bosnia and Herzgovina. The ethnicy is similar and some from there also have motivation to enter illegally. Basing on race ignores those. Also turning it around: Is it right for somebody, like the runner, who legally entered to repeatedly be treated bad just because others who share skin color do bad?
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - em-bee 2y ago
    even better, the first check could have asked him for his route, and phone ahead to let their colleagues and especially the call centers know that he is coming. with a photo even. the reverse of a wanted poster. and if they had to deal with a lot of illegal immigrants in the area, the maybe could have asked him to wear something easily identifiable that someone else would not wear. maybe a number thing that's common for runners in a competition. part of the problem is not only that he is checked, but how he is being treated during those checks. i mean that's my experience in china. every interaction with authorities was extremely polite and friendly. even when it was an issue where i broke the law because i didn't register my new address in time. of course africans experience racism in china as well, so i can't say for sure that they would get the same treatment as me, but certainly not what this guy experienced in croatia.