4 ms·

RIP W3C's HTML working group 1994-2024

47 points by tannhaeuser 2y ago

tannhaeuser 2y ago
In case you're wondering, the HTML WG charter hasn't been extended beyond December, 6th. There hadn't been any public activity for about two years anyway and W3C had undergone major changes meanwhile, such as a change in financing and legal entity type. Worth noting is that privacy concerns related to the reporting and other APIs were what was preventing the last considered WHATWG HTML Review Draft (published January, 2022) to become a recommendation, and change in HTML's so-called outlining (a holdout of Ian Hickson's vision for HTML that was never implemented in browsers and accessibility tech). Even though Steve Faulkner took it upon himself to remove outlining in upstream WHATWG specs, now no W3C recommendation is representing a modern HTML language without outlining. [1] makes the point that, arguably, its removal would've warranted a major version bump ("HTML 6") anyway, considering outlining has been formally part of "HTML 5" for the longest time. [1]: https://sgmljs.net/blog/blog2303.html https://sgmljs.net/blog/blog2303.html
starlite-5008 2y ago
[dead]
JoshTriplett 2y ago
Once web development moved to the WHATWG, it's not obvious what continued relevance W3C had. Nobody was particularly waiting on their blessing or rubber stamp. The W3C was not, for instance, a useful bastion against things like DRM, because they approved the EME DRM mechanism. And they weren't doing new web innovation that people wanted. So what purpose did they serve?
- soraminazuki 2y ago
  That the W3C wasn't a useful bastion against DRM is an understatement. It was the main driving force. WHATWG, on the other hand, appears to have opposed it. https://blog.whatwg.org/drm-and-web-security https://blog.whatwg.org/drm-and-web-security So what purpose did the W3C serve? Transforming user agents into entertainment industry agents, I guess.
  - mindcrash 2y ago
    A few tech companies have outrageous _corporate_ influence in the W3C who shouldn't. To name a few: Google, Microsoft, Netflix. I predicted serious issues with this ages ago, to the point that I suggested the best thing for humankind would be a fork of the HTML spec on behest of WHATWG. I also remember some long time independent contributors like Anne van Kesteren agreeing to this at the time. Also: https://theoutline.com/post/2304/netflix-microsoft-and-google-just-quietly-changed-how-the-web-works https://theoutline.com/post/2304/netflix-microsoft-and-googl... (2017!)
pjmlp 2y ago
It hardly matters now that the Web is basically ChromeOS, and whatever Google and Apple agree upon. The IE lesson is long forgotten.
- trilbyglens 2y ago
  Apple doesn't give two shits about the web platform. Google only does because of cultural inertia.
  - pjmlp 2y ago
    Apple is the only one standing between legacy Web and ChromeOS Development Platform. Ironically, without them WebGPU wouldn't even have ever existed. https://webkit.org/blog/7380/next-generation-3d-graphics-on-the-web/ https://webkit.org/blog/7380/next-generation-3d-graphics-on-...
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
gred 2y ago
This is a capstone of sorts to a process begun by the W3C's XHTML focus 20 years ago. Once again, incremental improvements to a flawed technology (HTML) were more successful than a perfectionist rewrite (XHTML). We so often ignore or downplay costs associated with adoption and migration when we build our "castles in the air". > The programmer, like the poet, works only slightly removed from pure thought-stuff. He builds his castles in the air, from air, creating by exertion of the imagination. Few media of creation are so flexible, so easy to polish and rework, so readily capable of realizing grand conceptual structures. (Fred Brooks) The W3C HTML working group was even further removed from users, imagining castles but then delegating the building to others.
- pjmlp 2y ago
  Users being Google.
  - bastawhiz 2y ago
    Users being anyone using the web. HTML 5's initial draft, which was the beginning of the end for the W3C, was published in January 2008. Chrome was released in September 2008. HTML 5 became a W3C recommendation in 2014, when Chrome had less than a 40% market share.
    - pjmlp 2y ago
      I think you meant ChromeOS.
      - bastawhiz 2y ago
        No I don't. Google didn't even publish the Chrome OS source until the end of 2009, and it wasn't a consumer product until June 2011.
        pjmlp 2y ago
        In 2025 it is going definitely to be ChromeOS. Web is driven by Google nowadays, so a standards body that only puts a signature into whatever Google decides, is naturally worthless.
ksec 2y ago
I remember they re-launched as a public-interest non-profit organization. [1] And then that was it. It doesn't seems the WHATWG were interested to play along. Practically speaking the internet is now Webkit or Blink. With a pitch of Gecko added. Nearly 25 years after IE 5.5, I do sometimes feel the Web hasn't actually moved or improved as much as we thought it would. RIP W3C. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34595456 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34595456

47 points by tannhaeuser 2y ago

In case you're wondering, the HTML WG charter hasn't been extended beyond December, 6th. There hadn't been any public activity for about two years anyway and W3C had undergone major changes meanwhile, such as a change in financing and legal entity type. Worth noting is that privacy concerns related to the reporting and other APIs were what was preventing the last considered WHATWG HTML Review Draft (published January, 2022) to become a recommendation, and change in HTML's so-called outlining (a holdout of Ian Hickson's vision for HTML that was never implemented in browsers and accessibility tech). Even though Steve Faulkner took it upon himself to remove outlining in upstream WHATWG specs, now no W3C recommendation is representing a modern HTML language without outlining. [1] makes the point that, arguably, its removal would've warranted a major version bump ("HTML 6") anyway, considering outlining has been formally part of "HTML 5" for the longest time. [1]: https://sgmljs.net/blog/blog2303.html https://sgmljs.net/blog/blog2303.html

starlite-5008 2y ago

[dead]

JoshTriplett 2y ago

Once web development moved to the WHATWG, it's not obvious what continued relevance W3C had. Nobody was particularly waiting on their blessing or rubber stamp. The W3C was not, for instance, a useful bastion against things like DRM, because they approved the EME DRM mechanism. And they weren't doing new web innovation that people wanted. So what purpose did they serve?

soraminazuki 2y ago
That the W3C wasn't a useful bastion against DRM is an understatement. It was the main driving force. WHATWG, on the other hand, appears to have opposed it. https://blog.whatwg.org/drm-and-web-security https://blog.whatwg.org/drm-and-web-security So what purpose did the W3C serve? Transforming user agents into entertainment industry agents, I guess.
- mindcrash 2y ago
  A few tech companies have outrageous _corporate_ influence in the W3C who shouldn't. To name a few: Google, Microsoft, Netflix. I predicted serious issues with this ages ago, to the point that I suggested the best thing for humankind would be a fork of the HTML spec on behest of WHATWG. I also remember some long time independent contributors like Anne van Kesteren agreeing to this at the time. Also: https://theoutline.com/post/2304/netflix-microsoft-and-google-just-quietly-changed-how-the-web-works https://theoutline.com/post/2304/netflix-microsoft-and-googl... (2017!)

pjmlp 2y ago

It hardly matters now that the Web is basically ChromeOS, and whatever Google and Apple agree upon. The IE lesson is long forgotten.

trilbyglens 2y ago
Apple doesn't give two shits about the web platform. Google only does because of cultural inertia.
- pjmlp 2y ago
  Apple is the only one standing between legacy Web and ChromeOS Development Platform. Ironically, without them WebGPU wouldn't even have ever existed. https://webkit.org/blog/7380/next-generation-3d-graphics-on-the-web/ https://webkit.org/blog/7380/next-generation-3d-graphics-on-...

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

gred 2y ago

This is a capstone of sorts to a process begun by the W3C's XHTML focus 20 years ago. Once again, incremental improvements to a flawed technology (HTML) were more successful than a perfectionist rewrite (XHTML). We so often ignore or downplay costs associated with adoption and migration when we build our "castles in the air". > The programmer, like the poet, works only slightly removed from pure thought-stuff. He builds his castles in the air, from air, creating by exertion of the imagination. Few media of creation are so flexible, so easy to polish and rework, so readily capable of realizing grand conceptual structures. (Fred Brooks) The W3C HTML working group was even further removed from users, imagining castles but then delegating the building to others.

pjmlp 2y ago
Users being Google.
- bastawhiz 2y ago
  Users being anyone using the web. HTML 5's initial draft, which was the beginning of the end for the W3C, was published in January 2008. Chrome was released in September 2008. HTML 5 became a W3C recommendation in 2014, when Chrome had less than a 40% market share.
  - pjmlp 2y ago
    I think you meant ChromeOS.
    - bastawhiz 2y ago
      No I don't. Google didn't even publish the Chrome OS source until the end of 2009, and it wasn't a consumer product until June 2011.
      - pjmlp 2y ago
        In 2025 it is going definitely to be ChromeOS. Web is driven by Google nowadays, so a standards body that only puts a signature into whatever Google decides, is naturally worthless.

ksec 2y ago

I remember they re-launched as a public-interest non-profit organization. [1] And then that was it. It doesn't seems the WHATWG were interested to play along. Practically speaking the internet is now Webkit or Blink. With a pitch of Gecko added. Nearly 25 years after IE 5.5, I do sometimes feel the Web hasn't actually moved or improved as much as we thought it would. RIP W3C. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34595456 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34595456