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You seem to look at it as if we benefit nothing from the cause of the problem. My point is that we have caused a lot of "problems" through burning fossil fuels

You seem to look at it as if we benefit nothing from the cause of the problem. My point is that we have caused a lot of "problems" through burning fossil fuels, and at least up until now, the "solutions" that we've gotten from all the progress we've been able to make has outweighed that cost - massively. Given that the rate of increase in emissions has slowed drastically and total emissions will likely peak this decade, and then fall pretty rapidly, I don't see any reason to believe that we're digging ourselves into a hole rather than building a better society for everyone.

wat10000 2y ago
> You seem to look at it as if we benefit nothing from the cause of the problem. I haven’t said anything even remotely like that. Of course the benefits have outweighed the costs so far. The whole thing is just getting started. The costs are nearly zero so far. Total warming was under 1C until a few years ago. We’re looking at something like 4C of warming with current trends. Projected warming with current emissions reduction pledges is 2.8C and it’s very unlikely that those pledges will be met. The harms are almost entirely in the future. Things will get much worse before they get better. Or as the kids like to say, we were born at the end of the Fuck Around century and now we’re in the Find Out century.
- onlyrealcuzzo 2y ago
  They could've still been born in the dark ages if we didn't go through the industrial revolution and burn fossil fuels. I'm sure they'd pick this world, with it's future.
  - wat10000 2y ago
    I really hope the choice isn’t between one bleak future and another. I’m losing track of what point you’re making here, but “at least it’ll be better than medieval times” doesn’t seem like much of one.
    - palata 2y ago
      > but “at least it’ll be better than medieval times” doesn’t seem like much of one. And it's far from certain. The dinosaurs (and countless other species) disappeared due to a much slower process of climate change (and that is a fact, not a prediction). We humans may well disappear, for all we know.
      - wat10000 2y ago
        There’s a good argument to be made that we only get one shot at a high tech civilization. So many easily accessible natural resources were used to bootstrap and are no longer available. Is an automotive industry going to arise in a world where you can’t stick a primitive drill into the ground in the right place and get oil gushing out? If climate change knocks humanity back to an 18th century level, that might be it. The species might survive for a long time after that, but forever at that level or worse. Maybe the argument is wrong and there are alternative ways to get back to high technology in that scenario. I strongly recommend not running the experiment.
        palata 2y ago
        > I strongly recommend not running the experiment. Do you know anybody who wants to live the complications that are coming? :-) What I see is that on the one hand, there are people who think that we should try to do our best with what we know (cut down on emissions, accept that we have to do less with less, and optimise our society accordingly). And on the other hand, we have people who get into the religion of technology, where some god will bring them solutions that do not exist today and that likely won't exist, but that those people really want to believe in.

wat10000 2y ago

> You seem to look at it as if we benefit nothing from the cause of the problem. I haven’t said anything even remotely like that. Of course the benefits have outweighed the costs so far. The whole thing is just getting started. The costs are nearly zero so far. Total warming was under 1C until a few years ago. We’re looking at something like 4C of warming with current trends. Projected warming with current emissions reduction pledges is 2.8C and it’s very unlikely that those pledges will be met. The harms are almost entirely in the future. Things will get much worse before they get better. Or as the kids like to say, we were born at the end of the Fuck Around century and now we’re in the Find Out century.

onlyrealcuzzo 2y ago
They could've still been born in the dark ages if we didn't go through the industrial revolution and burn fossil fuels. I'm sure they'd pick this world, with it's future.
- wat10000 2y ago
  I really hope the choice isn’t between one bleak future and another. I’m losing track of what point you’re making here, but “at least it’ll be better than medieval times” doesn’t seem like much of one.
  - palata 2y ago
    > but “at least it’ll be better than medieval times” doesn’t seem like much of one. And it's far from certain. The dinosaurs (and countless other species) disappeared due to a much slower process of climate change (and that is a fact, not a prediction). We humans may well disappear, for all we know.
    - wat10000 2y ago
      There’s a good argument to be made that we only get one shot at a high tech civilization. So many easily accessible natural resources were used to bootstrap and are no longer available. Is an automotive industry going to arise in a world where you can’t stick a primitive drill into the ground in the right place and get oil gushing out? If climate change knocks humanity back to an 18th century level, that might be it. The species might survive for a long time after that, but forever at that level or worse. Maybe the argument is wrong and there are alternative ways to get back to high technology in that scenario. I strongly recommend not running the experiment.
      - palata 2y ago
        > I strongly recommend not running the experiment. Do you know anybody who wants to live the complications that are coming? :-) What I see is that on the one hand, there are people who think that we should try to do our best with what we know (cut down on emissions, accept that we have to do less with less, and optimise our society accordingly). And on the other hand, we have people who get into the religion of technology, where some god will bring them solutions that do not exist today and that likely won't exist, but that those people really want to believe in.