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The problem is Bitcoin is being treated as a commodity and not a currency. Its value is measured using paper currency, that stuff you'll actually trade for prod

The problem is Bitcoin is being treated as a commodity and not a currency. Its value is measured using paper currency, that stuff you'll actually trade for product and services. It's difficult to use Bitcoin as currency because its value keeps rising. And when there are no more coins to be mined, when the value stops increasing: do you think everyone will suddenly agree to begin using it as currency? Or do you think everyone will try and sell Bitcoin to cash out for real currency? What happens to Bitcoin value at that point?

TZubiri 2y ago
Nobody knows. While depletion of mining rewards is very far into the future, it will very soon be virtually nothing, the only reward will be trading fees, and I'm not bullish on that. Satoshi should have just made a linear minting algo. All early reward was a mistake. We'll see why inflation is necessary. In 80 years will the youngins want a coin that they have no way of minting except begging their grampas for it?
- do_not_redeem 2y ago
  That's not unique to bitcoin. We're all born into this world with no money. When the youngins want money, they don't beg Jerome Powell to print them USD, or Satoshi to linearly mint them BTC--they get a job and work for it.
  - itsalwaysgood 2y ago
    It's a tired trope, but time is money. Fiat currency works because of this idea. Fiat currency fails when a nation defaults on its loans because people lose faith in the currency. The money printing scares everyone because of the US's rising debt. If it cannot be balanced at some point, people will think inflation is permanent. It's difficult to cut costs because the US economy must pay to maintain its status. The only way to reduce our debt is to increase our GDP: aka, sell more shit and do more with less.
  - TZubiri 2y ago
    Incorrect. Taxes and printed money are used as a redistributive system. Newborns enjoy unemployment benefits, basic health care, schooling etc... Bitcoin does not have this property, it's basically its whole ethos.
    - do_not_redeem 2y ago
      That is a property of society, not of the currency itself. Taxes pay for those things, and the US taxes economic activity in all currencies including bitcoin.
      - TZubiri 2y ago
        I get the argument that taxes might not be a property of the coin (its is, you don't pay taxes in btc, you pay them in usd) But the ability of the government to print usd to pay for social benefits is 100% a property of the coin. The argument is simple, Bitcoin has a limited supply and usd has constant minting, therefore btc gives more power to old farts, and usd gives power to everyone (citizens of the us) Don't overthink the simple.
        do_not_redeem 2y ago
        I can assure you the printed money is not paying for any social benefits—that is 100% taxes. If the government were so benevolent as to print money to pay for kids' education, the country would be far better off. Teachers would not be making paltry wages and paying for classroom supplies out of pocket. And bitcoin would not exist. Bitcoin was created by someone who didn't approve of what the old farts did with the money they print, and wanted to give power back to everyone (citizens of the world). Don't overthink the simple.
        TZubiri 2y ago
        "If the government were .. to print money to pay for kids' education" Let me cut your hypothetical right there to simplify and ignore the rest. It does, government prints money to pay, among other things for education. Even in ordinary money creation, yes the government borrows money, but it borrows it to fund state expenses like schools. They are paying interest which they just printed to fund these operations. Then exceptionally, (if they are ever insolvent or need money), they directly create money. 2008 crisis, 2021 covid crisis, wars. I don't understand how you simultaneously believe that the government prints money, but doesn't fund government expenses with printed money. Do they just print money to devalue savings and spite you?
throw0101d 2y ago
> The problem is Bitcoin is being treated as a commodity and not a currency. That's because that is what it is. Just like gold. (Which, besides mostly jewelry, has few other 'practical' application—modest use in industry and medicine.) > It's difficult to use Bitcoin as currency because its value keeps rising. And this is the problem with deflationary currencies, and was predicted a decade ago: * https://isps.yale.edu/news/blog/2014/06/the-perils-of-bitcoin-as-currency https://isps.yale.edu/news/blog/2014/06/the-perils-of-bitcoi... * https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Deflationary_spiral https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Deflationary_spiral > And when there are no more coins to be mined, when the value stops increasing: do you think everyone will suddenly agree to begin using it as currency? When there are no more coins to be mined (even if you want to get into slicing BTCs into satoshis) the value will increase: even more: if the demand for it goes up by (e.g.) 2% every year but your supply goes up 0%, what does Econ 101 tell us will happen? Even now folks are mostly hoarding: * https://www.coindesk.com/markets/2023/11/23/bitcoin-supply-inactive-for-a-year-hits-record-high-of-70 https://www.coindesk.com/markets/2023/11/23/bitcoin-supply-i...
- itsalwaysgood 2y ago
  Something is worth whatever someone else is willing to pay. If everyone thought of Bitcoin the way I do: its price would plummet. Fiat currency works because it's linked to a county's GDP, its credit (in the eyes of other nations). With such a system, you can put a price on commodity, like gold or Bitcoin. World trade is mostly done with the US dollar. Others are willing to trade the dollar because of belief in its issuing country's GDP and future economy. I understand that lack of faith in the US dollar and its 'money printer' are part of Bitcoin's rise... But that's a different topic in my opinion. Anyhow, gold is created in the heart of exploding stars, it looks good (we all love pretty, shiny things), it's rare. It's used in most advanced electronics (it's critical for sure, not sure about practical). Gold has always existed, and there's no doubt it will exist in the future. Bitcoin is math and ordered electrical charges. It's not being used the way it was intended. Its future is uncertain (quantum computing), and seems to be a big ponzi scheme. How are we expecting the value to keep increasing?

TZubiri 2y ago

Nobody knows. While depletion of mining rewards is very far into the future, it will very soon be virtually nothing, the only reward will be trading fees, and I'm not bullish on that. Satoshi should have just made a linear minting algo. All early reward was a mistake. We'll see why inflation is necessary. In 80 years will the youngins want a coin that they have no way of minting except begging their grampas for it?

do_not_redeem 2y ago
That's not unique to bitcoin. We're all born into this world with no money. When the youngins want money, they don't beg Jerome Powell to print them USD, or Satoshi to linearly mint them BTC--they get a job and work for it.
- itsalwaysgood 2y ago
  It's a tired trope, but time is money. Fiat currency works because of this idea. Fiat currency fails when a nation defaults on its loans because people lose faith in the currency. The money printing scares everyone because of the US's rising debt. If it cannot be balanced at some point, people will think inflation is permanent. It's difficult to cut costs because the US economy must pay to maintain its status. The only way to reduce our debt is to increase our GDP: aka, sell more shit and do more with less.
- TZubiri 2y ago
  Incorrect. Taxes and printed money are used as a redistributive system. Newborns enjoy unemployment benefits, basic health care, schooling etc... Bitcoin does not have this property, it's basically its whole ethos.
  - do_not_redeem 2y ago
    That is a property of society, not of the currency itself. Taxes pay for those things, and the US taxes economic activity in all currencies including bitcoin.
    - TZubiri 2y ago
      I get the argument that taxes might not be a property of the coin (its is, you don't pay taxes in btc, you pay them in usd) But the ability of the government to print usd to pay for social benefits is 100% a property of the coin. The argument is simple, Bitcoin has a limited supply and usd has constant minting, therefore btc gives more power to old farts, and usd gives power to everyone (citizens of the us) Don't overthink the simple.
      - do_not_redeem 2y ago
        I can assure you the printed money is not paying for any social benefits—that is 100% taxes. If the government were so benevolent as to print money to pay for kids' education, the country would be far better off. Teachers would not be making paltry wages and paying for classroom supplies out of pocket. And bitcoin would not exist. Bitcoin was created by someone who didn't approve of what the old farts did with the money they print, and wanted to give power back to everyone (citizens of the world). Don't overthink the simple.
        TZubiri 2y ago
        "If the government were .. to print money to pay for kids' education" Let me cut your hypothetical right there to simplify and ignore the rest. It does, government prints money to pay, among other things for education. Even in ordinary money creation, yes the government borrows money, but it borrows it to fund state expenses like schools. They are paying interest which they just printed to fund these operations. Then exceptionally, (if they are ever insolvent or need money), they directly create money. 2008 crisis, 2021 covid crisis, wars. I don't understand how you simultaneously believe that the government prints money, but doesn't fund government expenses with printed money. Do they just print money to devalue savings and spite you?

throw0101d 2y ago

> The problem is Bitcoin is being treated as a commodity and not a currency. That's because that is what it is. Just like gold. (Which, besides mostly jewelry, has few other 'practical' application—modest use in industry and medicine.) > It's difficult to use Bitcoin as currency because its value keeps rising. And this is the problem with deflationary currencies, and was predicted a decade ago: * https://isps.yale.edu/news/blog/2014/06/the-perils-of-bitcoin-as-currency https://isps.yale.edu/news/blog/2014/06/the-perils-of-bitcoi... * https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Deflationary_spiral https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Deflationary_spiral > And when there are no more coins to be mined, when the value stops increasing: do you think everyone will suddenly agree to begin using it as currency? When there are no more coins to be mined (even if you want to get into slicing BTCs into satoshis) the value will increase: even more: if the demand for it goes up by (e.g.) 2% every year but your supply goes up 0%, what does Econ 101 tell us will happen? Even now folks are mostly hoarding: * https://www.coindesk.com/markets/2023/11/23/bitcoin-supply-inactive-for-a-year-hits-record-high-of-70 https://www.coindesk.com/markets/2023/11/23/bitcoin-supply-i...

itsalwaysgood 2y ago
Something is worth whatever someone else is willing to pay. If everyone thought of Bitcoin the way I do: its price would plummet. Fiat currency works because it's linked to a county's GDP, its credit (in the eyes of other nations). With such a system, you can put a price on commodity, like gold or Bitcoin. World trade is mostly done with the US dollar. Others are willing to trade the dollar because of belief in its issuing country's GDP and future economy. I understand that lack of faith in the US dollar and its 'money printer' are part of Bitcoin's rise... But that's a different topic in my opinion. Anyhow, gold is created in the heart of exploding stars, it looks good (we all love pretty, shiny things), it's rare. It's used in most advanced electronics (it's critical for sure, not sure about practical). Gold has always existed, and there's no doubt it will exist in the future. Bitcoin is math and ordered electrical charges. It's not being used the way it was intended. Its future is uncertain (quantum computing), and seems to be a big ponzi scheme. How are we expecting the value to keep increasing?