4 ms·

No it won't. It's a fascinating system, with lots of potential, but it's not going to replace actually touching the thing I want to touch on the screen, and it

No it won't. It's a fascinating system, with lots of potential, but it's not going to replace actually touching the thing I want to touch on the screen, and it's not going to get rid of the problem of "Gorilla Arm" which happens if you hold your arm out straight for more than a few minutes.

noblethrasher 14y ago
I agree and that's too bad. Since we probably should not be sitting in front of a computer for hours at a time, "Gorilla Arm" is a feature, not a bug. Such new kinds of interfaces might even create incentives to make UI's more efficient in other areas since people would naturally want to limit their time working on the computer.
- AndrewDucker 14y ago
  I work at a computer 8 hours per day. It's my job to make the computer do things. If I could do it more efficiently then I'd _still_ be at the computer 8 hours per day, I'd just be getting more done while I was there. (Okay, there are meetings to nail down specs, etc. as well. But the majority of my time is definitely spent telling the computer what to do.)
vibrunazo 14y ago
I'm not sure I follow. Are you considering that you do can use the leap while resting your arm right? The technology doesn't stop functioning out of the blue because it just noticed you're not getting tired enough. If your laptop webcam was a leap sensor, you'd be able to use it to control a virtual keyboard/mouse while resting your arm in pretty much anything around you. You can use your work table as a keyboard. Or if you're lying down, use your belly. Tho I'm sure that future leap-ready devices will have it's own built in solution (like a tablet case specially designed to fold forward to serve as support for using your hands to type or something). There's nothing inherit to the technology that implies you must move your hands more or hold them in the air any more than what you already do with current input devices. People only do so in the demos to show off the technology. I mean, there's a lot of hard and interesting problems created by the leap that will be fun to try and solve. But a tired arm seems so simple to solve that it's even boring. Unless I'm missing something and you're talking about something else entirely?
- pbreit 14y ago
  You seem to have missed the main point: "not going to replace actually touching the thing I want to touch on the screen". That direct manipulation is unlikely to go away. While the Leap will be able to support such, touch is unlikely to go away. But I realize we are in the midst of overly sensational headlines.
  - akosner 14y ago
    I was just responding to the fact that David Holz referred to existing touch apps as "legacy" apps. It does have a charge to it which is why I used it in the headline. What I would think all the hackers would like about the Leap is that it progressively enhances on top of existing touch (and GUI) UIs. It will replace those things to the extent that it's useful to people, but it doesn't seem like it breaks anything downstream of it.
zacharypinter 14y ago
Side note: Have there been any studies (or even informal accounts) on people that hold their arms up a lot (e.g. puppeteers)? Do they still get tired arms easily, or have they gotten so used to it that they can do a day of work without their arms getting tired?
- zheng 14y ago
  This is called strength training, and yes, if you spend the majority of your day holding your arms up your muscles will adapt and it will become easier to do for longer without as many breaks.
- vadman 14y ago
  "[Rotator cuff tear] also commonly affects orchestra conductors, choral conductors, and drummers (due, again, to swinging motions)." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotator_cuff#Rotator_cuff_tear http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotator_cuff#Rotator_cuff_tear I wonder if this could be a side effect of Leap. The motions required are not as violent as those of conductors, but then again there are finer/weaker muscles in our wrists/fingers that could be affected.
dsirijus 14y ago
I almost completely agree. This won't really kill touch interfaces. It will go in conjunct with those. However, it will kill trackpads, and possibly mouse. The demos on videos are misleading in a way that they infer that this is competing with touch. It's not, it's going after trackpad, nipple and mouse.
- AndrewDucker 14y ago
  True. If it can work while I'm moving my hand 1mm above it, then I don't need a trackpad any more!
  - dsirijus 14y ago
    I can finally say goodbye to trackstick with it (I've never actually used trackpad, they're horrible)! Vim home row nav welcomes this open handed.
mark_integerdsv 14y ago
>>actually touching the thing I want to touch on the screen... You're not though... Actually touching the thing. I don't see the massive loss you infer between touching the screen and manipulating objects 'beyond' the screen. If anything it's the other way round: this is a far finer interpretation of directly making action on an interface element than is touch because where touch merely removes the metaphor (my hand is moving a thing which moves a thing which I can use to do things on the screen) this actually removes the screen. That simple feat creates a multitude of new possibilities in terms of types of gestures as well as giving you double the points of contact we have on most multitouch devices. Leap Motion needs to figure out how to provide haptic feedback on this thing next...
- betterth 14y ago
  I disagree entirely. How can you revolutionize touch without touching anything? I watched the demo -- it polled extremely quickly but the idea that it will improve drawing or gaming seems hilarious and wrong. (In the demo, Fruit Ninja, his ability was hilariously bad compared to touchscreen -- like comparing mouse to joystick! And they had the nerve to say it would IMPROVE that game!) We don't draw and manipulate in 3D, we do it in 2D. And this system is inherently 3D. Could you imagine a keyboard that is invisible floating in front of you with zero tactile feedback and zero idea of where you are? Ghost keyboard! Sounds like hunt and peck for all forever. If this tech can't replace a simple keyboard, than it CERTAINLY isn't replacing mobile touch. I still buy the "your arm will get tired" argument. When I draw, about 95% of my arm past the elbow touches the table. With this, it's about 10%. The rest of it is being supported by muscle and will tire -- period. Look at the guy doing the demo! He awkwardly holds his hand close to his chest holding a pencil AND requires his other hand to hold his first hand stable (something, you know, a table normally does for you). I think this is cool and would be great for casual usage and browsing, but I do not see it having any real impact on non-casual gaming and pro-applications. Maybe they'll supplement a kbb/mouse with this, but without ubiquity it seems unlikely any major vendor would incorporate this tech. However, the fact that 80% of these demos are Google Maps and games that are predisposed to ultra-simple input is super telling -- they can't do anything serious with it yet.

noblethrasher 14y ago

I agree and that's too bad. Since we probably should not be sitting in front of a computer for hours at a time, "Gorilla Arm" is a feature, not a bug. Such new kinds of interfaces might even create incentives to make UI's more efficient in other areas since people would naturally want to limit their time working on the computer.

AndrewDucker 14y ago
I work at a computer 8 hours per day. It's my job to make the computer do things. If I could do it more efficiently then I'd _still_ be at the computer 8 hours per day, I'd just be getting more done while I was there. (Okay, there are meetings to nail down specs, etc. as well. But the majority of my time is definitely spent telling the computer what to do.)

vibrunazo 14y ago

I'm not sure I follow. Are you considering that you do can use the leap while resting your arm right? The technology doesn't stop functioning out of the blue because it just noticed you're not getting tired enough. If your laptop webcam was a leap sensor, you'd be able to use it to control a virtual keyboard/mouse while resting your arm in pretty much anything around you. You can use your work table as a keyboard. Or if you're lying down, use your belly. Tho I'm sure that future leap-ready devices will have it's own built in solution (like a tablet case specially designed to fold forward to serve as support for using your hands to type or something). There's nothing inherit to the technology that implies you must move your hands more or hold them in the air any more than what you already do with current input devices. People only do so in the demos to show off the technology. I mean, there's a lot of hard and interesting problems created by the leap that will be fun to try and solve. But a tired arm seems so simple to solve that it's even boring. Unless I'm missing something and you're talking about something else entirely?

pbreit 14y ago
You seem to have missed the main point: "not going to replace actually touching the thing I want to touch on the screen". That direct manipulation is unlikely to go away. While the Leap will be able to support such, touch is unlikely to go away. But I realize we are in the midst of overly sensational headlines.
- akosner 14y ago
  I was just responding to the fact that David Holz referred to existing touch apps as "legacy" apps. It does have a charge to it which is why I used it in the headline. What I would think all the hackers would like about the Leap is that it progressively enhances on top of existing touch (and GUI) UIs. It will replace those things to the extent that it's useful to people, but it doesn't seem like it breaks anything downstream of it.

zacharypinter 14y ago

Side note: Have there been any studies (or even informal accounts) on people that hold their arms up a lot (e.g. puppeteers)? Do they still get tired arms easily, or have they gotten so used to it that they can do a day of work without their arms getting tired?

zheng 14y ago
This is called strength training, and yes, if you spend the majority of your day holding your arms up your muscles will adapt and it will become easier to do for longer without as many breaks.
vadman 14y ago
"[Rotator cuff tear] also commonly affects orchestra conductors, choral conductors, and drummers (due, again, to swinging motions)." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotator_cuff#Rotator_cuff_tear http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotator_cuff#Rotator_cuff_tear I wonder if this could be a side effect of Leap. The motions required are not as violent as those of conductors, but then again there are finer/weaker muscles in our wrists/fingers that could be affected.

dsirijus 14y ago

I almost completely agree. This won't really kill touch interfaces. It will go in conjunct with those. However, it will kill trackpads, and possibly mouse. The demos on videos are misleading in a way that they infer that this is competing with touch. It's not, it's going after trackpad, nipple and mouse.

AndrewDucker 14y ago
True. If it can work while I'm moving my hand 1mm above it, then I don't need a trackpad any more!
- dsirijus 14y ago
  I can finally say goodbye to trackstick with it (I've never actually used trackpad, they're horrible)! Vim home row nav welcomes this open handed.

mark_integerdsv 14y ago

>>actually touching the thing I want to touch on the screen... You're not though... Actually touching the thing. I don't see the massive loss you infer between touching the screen and manipulating objects 'beyond' the screen. If anything it's the other way round: this is a far finer interpretation of directly making action on an interface element than is touch because where touch merely removes the metaphor (my hand is moving a thing which moves a thing which I can use to do things on the screen) this actually removes the screen. That simple feat creates a multitude of new possibilities in terms of types of gestures as well as giving you double the points of contact we have on most multitouch devices. Leap Motion needs to figure out how to provide haptic feedback on this thing next...

betterth 14y ago
I disagree entirely. How can you revolutionize touch without touching anything? I watched the demo -- it polled extremely quickly but the idea that it will improve drawing or gaming seems hilarious and wrong. (In the demo, Fruit Ninja, his ability was hilariously bad compared to touchscreen -- like comparing mouse to joystick! And they had the nerve to say it would IMPROVE that game!) We don't draw and manipulate in 3D, we do it in 2D. And this system is inherently 3D. Could you imagine a keyboard that is invisible floating in front of you with zero tactile feedback and zero idea of where you are? Ghost keyboard! Sounds like hunt and peck for all forever. If this tech can't replace a simple keyboard, than it CERTAINLY isn't replacing mobile touch. I still buy the "your arm will get tired" argument. When I draw, about 95% of my arm past the elbow touches the table. With this, it's about 10%. The rest of it is being supported by muscle and will tire -- period. Look at the guy doing the demo! He awkwardly holds his hand close to his chest holding a pencil AND requires his other hand to hold his first hand stable (something, you know, a table normally does for you). I think this is cool and would be great for casual usage and browsing, but I do not see it having any real impact on non-casual gaming and pro-applications. Maybe they'll supplement a kbb/mouse with this, but without ubiquity it seems unlikely any major vendor would incorporate this tech. However, the fact that 80% of these demos are Google Maps and games that are predisposed to ultra-simple input is super telling -- they can't do anything serious with it yet.