4 ms·

"betrayed", "promised" - these are quite telling about the sense of entitlement these people have (rightly or wrongly). The world doesn't owe you anything, eve

"betrayed", "promised" - these are quite telling about the sense of entitlement these people have (rightly or wrongly). The world doesn't owe you anything, even if you did a PhD in AI. Sorry if you picked the wrong thing, but it's the same for anything at degree level.

currymj 2y ago
i think PhD programs and advisors did make some implicit or explicit promises to recruit students to work for them, very hard, for years, at very low salaries. the PhD is not like a master's program, it's an apprenticeship relationship where you essentially work for a senior professor, and your work directly financially benefits the department as well. so there is a deal here, but if one end of it is collapsing, the students in some departments might very well feel betrayed -- not by society but by their advisors and programs.
- SoftTalker 2y ago
  There's no reason to do a Ph.D. if you don't aspire to an academic position. If you want to be a practitioner, do a Masters.
  - ska 2y ago
    It's really not that simple. But it's fair to say that while a masters can often be a very straightforward training to get you ready for a particular job, you really shouldn't go into a PhD program without a good idea of a) why and b) where you are aiming for afterward. For STEM I would usually add c) someone else is paying for it
  - mistrial9 2y ago
    the competitive investment world has gotten a flavor of ever-increasing requirements.. it fits with a scarcity model they thrive in
  - currymj 2y ago
    this is true overall, but for the last decade there have been many research-oriented positions at large tech companies for which the PhD degree is a formal job requirement. others don’t make it a formal requirement, but demand research experience which can be gotten most easily as a PhD student.
perching_aix 2y ago
Is there a point to saying something like this other than to be explicitly uncompassionate towards those affected? I could simply respond with "sorry to hear you upset yourself by considering these people entitled", and it would have about the same merit. It's like telling somebody after a close relative or some else dear to them died that what, did they expect that person would live forever? No, do you? Do you genuinely think their feelings of betrayal stem from an unreasonable notion of the world? Have you at all considered that the expectations they harbored were not 100% of their own creation?
- friendlyasparag 2y ago
  I suspect many commentators would say the same thing to the English majors out there who were told that passion and a college degree would lead to economic mobility and not a load of debt. Weren’t they also harboring unreasonable views that were not 100% of their own creation?
  - perching_aix 2y ago
    I'm unable to read minds, so if in your head that self-serving scenario played out such that they were, then they were. Does that justify being uncompassionate towards them by calling them entitled? Is entitled really the best fit for what they were being, rather than say, just plain unreasonable or misguided? Can you read minds that you know they were thinking the world owes them and that's how they developed a passion and completed a college degree?
    - friendlyasparag 2y ago
      I’m glad you are willing to treat both groups the same. I suspect many on this site wouldn’t and would take pains to explain how they’re entirely different :)
      - sigbottle 2y ago
        Maybe I'm just not smart/eloquent enough to come up with a response like GP, but often I'll have arguments in my head where it looks like: - make a point A - oh, counterexample with point B - ehh that's a good point logically... but I'll just go with point A anyways, especially when point A is something generally optimistic, and point B is cynical. I don't like going into social arguments for this reason - it's very easy (and often logically correct) to create an ad-absurdum counter-argument to a lot of our general social beliefs. But to be a functioning human being, sometimes you just have to take the optimistic choice regardless. I know that certainly when I was constantly listening to B, I was depressed out of my mind; would rather be "delusional and stubborn" on some things than depressed. Twice two might not be five, but it keeps your sanity.

currymj 2y ago

i think PhD programs and advisors did make some implicit or explicit promises to recruit students to work for them, very hard, for years, at very low salaries. the PhD is not like a master's program, it's an apprenticeship relationship where you essentially work for a senior professor, and your work directly financially benefits the department as well. so there is a deal here, but if one end of it is collapsing, the students in some departments might very well feel betrayed -- not by society but by their advisors and programs.

SoftTalker 2y ago
There's no reason to do a Ph.D. if you don't aspire to an academic position. If you want to be a practitioner, do a Masters.
- ska 2y ago
  It's really not that simple. But it's fair to say that while a masters can often be a very straightforward training to get you ready for a particular job, you really shouldn't go into a PhD program without a good idea of a) why and b) where you are aiming for afterward. For STEM I would usually add c) someone else is paying for it
- mistrial9 2y ago
  the competitive investment world has gotten a flavor of ever-increasing requirements.. it fits with a scarcity model they thrive in
- currymj 2y ago
  this is true overall, but for the last decade there have been many research-oriented positions at large tech companies for which the PhD degree is a formal job requirement. others don’t make it a formal requirement, but demand research experience which can be gotten most easily as a PhD student.

perching_aix 2y ago

Is there a point to saying something like this other than to be explicitly uncompassionate towards those affected? I could simply respond with "sorry to hear you upset yourself by considering these people entitled", and it would have about the same merit. It's like telling somebody after a close relative or some else dear to them died that what, did they expect that person would live forever? No, do you? Do you genuinely think their feelings of betrayal stem from an unreasonable notion of the world? Have you at all considered that the expectations they harbored were not 100% of their own creation?

friendlyasparag 2y ago
I suspect many commentators would say the same thing to the English majors out there who were told that passion and a college degree would lead to economic mobility and not a load of debt. Weren’t they also harboring unreasonable views that were not 100% of their own creation?
- perching_aix 2y ago
  I'm unable to read minds, so if in your head that self-serving scenario played out such that they were, then they were. Does that justify being uncompassionate towards them by calling them entitled? Is entitled really the best fit for what they were being, rather than say, just plain unreasonable or misguided? Can you read minds that you know they were thinking the world owes them and that's how they developed a passion and completed a college degree?
  - friendlyasparag 2y ago
    I’m glad you are willing to treat both groups the same. I suspect many on this site wouldn’t and would take pains to explain how they’re entirely different :)
    - sigbottle 2y ago
      Maybe I'm just not smart/eloquent enough to come up with a response like GP, but often I'll have arguments in my head where it looks like: - make a point A - oh, counterexample with point B - ehh that's a good point logically... but I'll just go with point A anyways, especially when point A is something generally optimistic, and point B is cynical. I don't like going into social arguments for this reason - it's very easy (and often logically correct) to create an ad-absurdum counter-argument to a lot of our general social beliefs. But to be a functioning human being, sometimes you just have to take the optimistic choice regardless. I know that certainly when I was constantly listening to B, I was depressed out of my mind; would rather be "delusional and stubborn" on some things than depressed. Twice two might not be five, but it keeps your sanity.