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Again, there is an entire spectrum of human existence between medieval subsistence and modern global industrial capitalism, and you seem to be defining literall

• WalterBright 2y ago
  > And the ancient Romans had indoor plumbing. Only a handful of rich Romans. > or clearly it was possible to purchase cars and washing machines, and transport goods, and have hospitals and air conditioning without "big business" of the scale that the context of this thread is clearly referring to. Nope. It took Ford's big business to be able to make cars cheap enough for the masses. Before Ford, it was a luxury item for a handful of wealthy people. Railroads were big business, too. You cannot have much of an economy with just horses.
  • krapp 2y ago
    >Only a handful of rich Romans. Yes. And therefore, they didn't need modern industrial capitalism with global corporations to do it. And, just noting the moving goalposts here, your claim wasn't that such amenities weren't affordable without modern capitalism, because even with it, many people struggle to afford them, it was that they were impossible at any scale other than "big business." >It took Ford's big business to be able to make cars cheap enough for the masses. Before Ford, it was a luxury item for a handful of wealthy people. Ford at the time of the Model T wouldn't be considered a "big business" in the modern context. Again, you seem to think any business counts as "big business." Using the same term to refer to Ford in 1910 and, say, Amazon or Wal-Mart today is ridiculous. Obviously Ford would become "big business" but just as obviously Ford is one example of it being possible to manufacture goods at what would be far closer to "mom and pop" scale today.
    • WalterBright 2y ago
      Sure, you can make artisan cars and artisan indoor plumbing. This will not be available to the masses, however, without the economies of scale that come with big business. You could also make artisan steel before the big steel industry. About all you could do with it was make swords and a suit of armor at terrific expense. > of it being possible to manufacture goods at what would be far closer to "mom and pop" scale today. Before the industrial revolution, 90% of the population worked on the farm, and famine was still a regular occurrence. There was no available work force to create artisan cars and artisan indoor plumbing for the masses. Nor was there food to feed them. Some years ago, I toured Jefferson's Monticello mansion and estate. In the back yard there was a nailery, where the slaves operated a small forge and hammered out nails, one by one. Today you can just buy a box of nails for a few dollars, thanks to big steel and the nail making machining requiring little additional labor. I don't know how many nails could be made in a day's work by an artisan, but I doubt it is that many, and it's cost you at least $150 for that box of nails. Nails were so valuable in those days people would burn houses down just to get the nails. I had my roof replaced a year ago. After the roofers left, I spent a fair amount of time combing the yard to get all the discarded nails out of it. The nails were so cheap it was not worth anyone's time to pick them up. (I picked them up because I didn't want to step on them. I did anyway, driving the nail nearly through the sole of my shoe.)
      • krapp 2y ago
        Nails became affordable long before modern global manufacturing. They were affordable when "artisans" were still making them. Come on now.
        • WalterBright 2y ago
          People used complex wood joinery in those days due to the expense of nails.
          • krapp 2y ago
            I assume that "those days" refers to the 1700s, since you seem to be fixated on that, but nails were being manufactured by the 1800s and mass produced by the 1900s, and certainly didn't require "big business" to be affordable. Merry Christmas, or whatever.