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Fun fact, a lot of those new joyless McDonalds remodels had their CAD work done by UNICOR. Remember, prison guards get special bonus' for managing inmates that

Fun fact, a lot of those new joyless McDonalds remodels had their CAD work done by UNICOR. Remember, prison guards get special bonus' for managing inmates that make the prison money. Now imagine that you are constitutionally a slave (according to the Thirteenth Amendment) and that your prison guard's bonus is tied to your work. You don't get to say no to extra shifts. You don't get to take sick days. You don't get to stop the line (for those making physical products). You don't get to challenge the safety of your workstation (for those making physical products). I'm not saying these programs shouldn't exist, but you need actual safeguards to prevent the current rampant abuse of prisoners (at least on the UNICOR side). Guards should never be 'special UNICOR employees' tied to the program (they really start to see inmates as slaves, their job only exists as long as their facility's UNICOR program is 'successful') and should never have bonus' tied to inmate work output. Currently both of these things occur.

nickff 2y ago
The Thirteenth Amendment does not say that prisoners are slaves. The text (of section one) is: “Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.” This means that someone could be sentenced to slavery or indentured servitude. Federal prisons require able inmates to work; this is a form of indentured servitude, but it does not necessarily extend to state prisons (or municipal jails). Slaves are property of others (until their death or a decision by their owner to free them), and can be traded or sold. Indentured servants are engaged for a specified period of time, usually to one specific employer.
- codazoda 2y ago
  I don’t believe they argued that the 13th amendment says prisoners are slaves. They only asked you to imagine that you are and they pointed out that it’s allowed “according to the Thirteenth amendment”. At least, that was my interpretation.
  - nickff 2y ago
    My read is that they were asking the reader to imagine they (the reader) are a prisoner, and thus a slave according to the thirteenth amendment. Even under your reading, that comment is a pure hypothetical, because federal prisoners are not slaves. I happen to believe that the federal government has enslaved people in a different context, very recently, conscripts.
    - jmholla 2y ago
      The very amendment you've been quoting explicitly calls it slavery. What would this system look like if slavery wasn't excused for incarceration?
      - SoftTalker 2y ago
        They call it "involuntary servitude." I read it as: Neither (slavery) nor (involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted), shall exist within the United States ...
        jmholla 2y ago
        It's a distinction without a difference. Even the Wikipedia article explicitly says that involuntary servitude and involuntary slavery are used interchangeably. [0] I feel you're getting caught up in word choice instead of arguing the actual implementation and interpretation of the law. [0]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Involuntary_servitude https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Involuntary_servitude
- dghlsakjg 2y ago
  > Slaves are property of others (until their death or a decision by their owner to free them) That is chattel slavery. There are other forms of slavery, indentured servitude being one of them. De facto slavery is the term of art for what is going on here.
  - AlotOfReading 2y ago
    The term of art that I'm familiar with is "unfree labor" or "modern slavery", both of which are widely used. Either way, every country has agreed it's at least nominally a human rights issue via the Forced Labor Convention ratified by all diplomatically significant nations except the US.
- mckn1ght 2y ago
  Indentured servitude was a contract one would enter into voluntarily with a perceived benefit on the other side. I think you’d have to squint pretty hard to argue that every criminal doing labor today voluntarily signed up for it to brighten their futures.
  - nickff 2y ago
    Well, supporters of state authority could argue that the contract was a prior one, the ‘social contract’. As it happens, I am a philosophical anarchist, so that doesn’t work for me, but most discussants here probably believe in political authority of some sort.
    - mckn1ght 2y ago
      Equating “the social contract” with the type of legal construction involved with actual indentured servitude is some real “a taco is a hotdog” thinking.
      - nickff 2y ago
        Nobody currently alive actually voted on anything related to the US Constitution, any of the first fifteen amendments, or many important laws, because they weren't alive. I don't see how the Thirteenth Amendment is any different from the many laws which were enacted and last amended before you or I was alive. Either the populace has consented to all of that body of law, or none of it.
        a12k 2y ago
        I think that they’re saying that the concept of a social contract does not refer to a literal contract or legal document, or document of any kind, but rather simply a way of treating each other implicit in society. Notably neither the Constitution nor its Amendments is the “social contract.”
        anonym29 2y ago
- _DeadFred_ 2y ago
  If you are not allowed to have a sick day without facing physical punishment (a threat obfuscated to the public by it being a threat of being shipped to a more dangerous facility, so I.E. a major threat of danger and permanent maming made clear to the slave but a threat somewhat obscured to the general public) what would you call it? You are not allowed bad days. You are not allowed slow days. You must work to the guard's (whose bonus depends on it) satisfaction. Or maybe your cell/tier gets extra shakedowns, and it's made known it's because you made a guard mad, you are going to get beat down. Based on your work performance. What would that be called?
dyauspitr 2y ago
Dream frontline engineering manager situation
gen3 2y ago
Where can I read more about UNICOR doing some of the redesign work?
- _DeadFred_ 2y ago
  Your best bet would be a FOIA request to the BOP.
from-nibly 2y ago
Maybe this is a signal that we need to rethink how we deal with people that break the law?
_DeadFred_ 2y ago
These people: https://www.nbcnews.com/news/rcna185537 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/rcna185537 should not have their salary and/or bonus' based in anyway on the labor of the people they guard.

nickff 2y ago

The Thirteenth Amendment does not say that prisoners are slaves. The text (of section one) is: “Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.” This means that someone could be sentenced to slavery or indentured servitude. Federal prisons require able inmates to work; this is a form of indentured servitude, but it does not necessarily extend to state prisons (or municipal jails). Slaves are property of others (until their death or a decision by their owner to free them), and can be traded or sold. Indentured servants are engaged for a specified period of time, usually to one specific employer.

codazoda 2y ago
I don’t believe they argued that the 13th amendment says prisoners are slaves. They only asked you to imagine that you are and they pointed out that it’s allowed “according to the Thirteenth amendment”. At least, that was my interpretation.
- nickff 2y ago
  My read is that they were asking the reader to imagine they (the reader) are a prisoner, and thus a slave according to the thirteenth amendment. Even under your reading, that comment is a pure hypothetical, because federal prisoners are not slaves. I happen to believe that the federal government has enslaved people in a different context, very recently, conscripts.
  - jmholla 2y ago
    The very amendment you've been quoting explicitly calls it slavery. What would this system look like if slavery wasn't excused for incarceration?
    - SoftTalker 2y ago
      They call it "involuntary servitude." I read it as: Neither (slavery) nor (involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted), shall exist within the United States ...
      - jmholla 2y ago
        It's a distinction without a difference. Even the Wikipedia article explicitly says that involuntary servitude and involuntary slavery are used interchangeably. [0] I feel you're getting caught up in word choice instead of arguing the actual implementation and interpretation of the law. [0]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Involuntary_servitude https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Involuntary_servitude
dghlsakjg 2y ago
> Slaves are property of others (until their death or a decision by their owner to free them) That is chattel slavery. There are other forms of slavery, indentured servitude being one of them. De facto slavery is the term of art for what is going on here.
- AlotOfReading 2y ago
  The term of art that I'm familiar with is "unfree labor" or "modern slavery", both of which are widely used. Either way, every country has agreed it's at least nominally a human rights issue via the Forced Labor Convention ratified by all diplomatically significant nations except the US.
mckn1ght 2y ago
Indentured servitude was a contract one would enter into voluntarily with a perceived benefit on the other side. I think you’d have to squint pretty hard to argue that every criminal doing labor today voluntarily signed up for it to brighten their futures.
- nickff 2y ago
  Well, supporters of state authority could argue that the contract was a prior one, the ‘social contract’. As it happens, I am a philosophical anarchist, so that doesn’t work for me, but most discussants here probably believe in political authority of some sort.
  - mckn1ght 2y ago
    Equating “the social contract” with the type of legal construction involved with actual indentured servitude is some real “a taco is a hotdog” thinking.
    - nickff 2y ago
      Nobody currently alive actually voted on anything related to the US Constitution, any of the first fifteen amendments, or many important laws, because they weren't alive. I don't see how the Thirteenth Amendment is any different from the many laws which were enacted and last amended before you or I was alive. Either the populace has consented to all of that body of law, or none of it.
      - a12k 2y ago
        I think that they’re saying that the concept of a social contract does not refer to a literal contract or legal document, or document of any kind, but rather simply a way of treating each other implicit in society. Notably neither the Constitution nor its Amendments is the “social contract.”
        anonym29 2y ago
_DeadFred_ 2y ago
If you are not allowed to have a sick day without facing physical punishment (a threat obfuscated to the public by it being a threat of being shipped to a more dangerous facility, so I.E. a major threat of danger and permanent maming made clear to the slave but a threat somewhat obscured to the general public) what would you call it? You are not allowed bad days. You are not allowed slow days. You must work to the guard's (whose bonus depends on it) satisfaction. Or maybe your cell/tier gets extra shakedowns, and it's made known it's because you made a guard mad, you are going to get beat down. Based on your work performance. What would that be called?

dyauspitr 2y ago

Dream frontline engineering manager situation

gen3 2y ago

Where can I read more about UNICOR doing some of the redesign work?

_DeadFred_ 2y ago
Your best bet would be a FOIA request to the BOP.

from-nibly 2y ago

Maybe this is a signal that we need to rethink how we deal with people that break the law?

_DeadFred_ 2y ago

These people: https://www.nbcnews.com/news/rcna185537 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/rcna185537 should not have their salary and/or bonus' based in anyway on the labor of the people they guard.