6 ms·

are you claiming that the Scandinavians are lying about their rates of recidivism? or that you believe that recidivism is indeed lower there than in the US, but

by exe34 2y ago

are you claiming that the Scandinavians are lying about their rates of recidivism? or that you believe that recidivism is indeed lower there than in the US, but it's due to something else than their focus on rehabilitation over punishment? I'm trying to figure out if you're arguing in good faith or if it would not be worth digging up the numbers for you.

zdragnar 2y ago
It is fair to consider the study suspect in that Scandinavian societies as a whole may contribute to decreased recidivism. Understanding the role that the penal system plays will have different outcomes in other countries with different social makeups and different values (broadly speaking) should not be discounted. That's not to say that rehabilitation is impossible. I am inclined to disagree with the utter disregard GP had for the study, but I also do not believe it can be directly replicated in American society as it stands today.
- exe34 2y ago
  > also do not believe it can be directly replicated in American society as it stands today. amen to that. profit-making prisons are a pretty clever way around slavery laws.
- vidarh 2y ago
  Norway had a brutal, US inspired prison system until the 1960s. Norway's most infamous prison (now closed) was explicitly built on plans copying a US prison design. Norway's current focus on reducing reoffending was a decades long path of prison reform and gradually figuring out what works.
- mckn1ght 2y ago
  This is obvious to me. A different value system is required to approach justice differently. Sadly this indicates that it is not just our justice system that needs fixing, but instead our entire societal culture. It’s no wonder we have such outlying violence statistics, we are just more bloodthirsty. And this is coming from someone who believes that guns don’t kill people, people kill people. Yes, guns make it easier, but you have to want to kill first, and we simply have more of that per capita. Likewise, maybe the same society that views justice as retributive, is one that will fight tooth and nail to keep access to guns unchanged even in the face of elementary school massacres and toddlers accidentally discharging guns left lying around, as well as look the other way from abysmal mental health crises leading to dire situations that lead to a variety of violence and trauma. So yes, I agree that we won’t just see it replicated in American society anytime soon.
- itronitron 2y ago
  It is also fair to consider that if systemic racial profiling has contributed to a person's winding up in prison, then following their release from prison that same racial profiling will put them back in prison.
baggy_trough 2y ago
I didn't claim anything about Scandinavians. I'm just not going to take some claim about "actual data" on retribution vs. recidivism at face value.
- exe34 2y ago
  > I'm just not going to take some claim [...] at face value Again, what does that mean to you? What would it take to convince you? Presumably pointing at the Scandinavians does not convince you? So "actual data" isn't enough. What would be enough? Is it possible to change your mind? Or have you already decided the answer but know you can't defend it?
  - baggy_trough 2y ago
    I would potentially take heed of a study that had authorship with mixed ideology, where conservative ideas were not automatically dismissed out of hand. Probably the most valuable would be debates between intelligent people on both sides that I believe are arguing in good faith. Scandinavia is different from the United States so I'm not going to automatically assume that something that works for them would work in the United States. There are also highly retributive societies, such as Singapore, that have excellent crime and safety results. Does that convince you that more retribution is needed? If not, why should I pay attention to Scandinavia but not Singapore?

by exe34 2y ago

zdragnar 2y ago

It is fair to consider the study suspect in that Scandinavian societies as a whole may contribute to decreased recidivism. Understanding the role that the penal system plays will have different outcomes in other countries with different social makeups and different values (broadly speaking) should not be discounted. That's not to say that rehabilitation is impossible. I am inclined to disagree with the utter disregard GP had for the study, but I also do not believe it can be directly replicated in American society as it stands today.

exe34 2y ago
> also do not believe it can be directly replicated in American society as it stands today. amen to that. profit-making prisons are a pretty clever way around slavery laws.
vidarh 2y ago
Norway had a brutal, US inspired prison system until the 1960s. Norway's most infamous prison (now closed) was explicitly built on plans copying a US prison design. Norway's current focus on reducing reoffending was a decades long path of prison reform and gradually figuring out what works.
mckn1ght 2y ago
This is obvious to me. A different value system is required to approach justice differently. Sadly this indicates that it is not just our justice system that needs fixing, but instead our entire societal culture. It’s no wonder we have such outlying violence statistics, we are just more bloodthirsty. And this is coming from someone who believes that guns don’t kill people, people kill people. Yes, guns make it easier, but you have to want to kill first, and we simply have more of that per capita. Likewise, maybe the same society that views justice as retributive, is one that will fight tooth and nail to keep access to guns unchanged even in the face of elementary school massacres and toddlers accidentally discharging guns left lying around, as well as look the other way from abysmal mental health crises leading to dire situations that lead to a variety of violence and trauma. So yes, I agree that we won’t just see it replicated in American society anytime soon.
itronitron 2y ago
It is also fair to consider that if systemic racial profiling has contributed to a person's winding up in prison, then following their release from prison that same racial profiling will put them back in prison.

baggy_trough 2y ago

I didn't claim anything about Scandinavians. I'm just not going to take some claim about "actual data" on retribution vs. recidivism at face value.

exe34 2y ago
> I'm just not going to take some claim [...] at face value Again, what does that mean to you? What would it take to convince you? Presumably pointing at the Scandinavians does not convince you? So "actual data" isn't enough. What would be enough? Is it possible to change your mind? Or have you already decided the answer but know you can't defend it?
- baggy_trough 2y ago
  I would potentially take heed of a study that had authorship with mixed ideology, where conservative ideas were not automatically dismissed out of hand. Probably the most valuable would be debates between intelligent people on both sides that I believe are arguing in good faith. Scandinavia is different from the United States so I'm not going to automatically assume that something that works for them would work in the United States. There are also highly retributive societies, such as Singapore, that have excellent crime and safety results. Does that convince you that more retribution is needed? If not, why should I pay attention to Scandinavia but not Singapore?