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> Retribution contributes to deterrence, the actual data on this refutes that. rehabilitation focused countries overhelmingly have less recidivism. increasing

> Retribution contributes to deterrence, the actual data on this refutes that. rehabilitation focused countries overhelmingly have less recidivism. increasing access and quality of education, early intervention like head start, wicc and other "wellfare" programs as well as free healthcare are much more likely to reduce crime rates by a significant amount.

baggy_trough 2y ago
[flagged]
- lazyasciiart 2y ago
  So you think other people should bother to listen to your gut feelings instead.
  - baggy_trough 2y ago
    Unfortunately we don't have much more to go on, given an academia that is overwhelmingly leftist, especially in the social sciences.
    - kaibee 2y ago
      > Unfortunately we don't have much more to go on, given an academia that is overwhelmingly leftist, especially in the social sciences. Yea its hard figure out the truth when you just dismiss all the evidence that goes against your priors.
    - lazyasciiart 2y ago
      Ahh, so anyone who knows what they are talking about disagrees with you and you think that’s a problem with their work.
      - baggy_trough 2y ago
        You don't think it's a problem that 99% of social study researchers are left wing?
        lazyasciiart 2y ago
        100% of astronauts believe the world is a sphere.
        baggy_trough 2y ago
        Thank you for making my point.
- exe34 2y ago
  are you claiming that the Scandinavians are lying about their rates of recidivism? or that you believe that recidivism is indeed lower there than in the US, but it's due to something else than their focus on rehabilitation over punishment? I'm trying to figure out if you're arguing in good faith or if it would not be worth digging up the numbers for you.
  - zdragnar 2y ago
    It is fair to consider the study suspect in that Scandinavian societies as a whole may contribute to decreased recidivism. Understanding the role that the penal system plays will have different outcomes in other countries with different social makeups and different values (broadly speaking) should not be discounted. That's not to say that rehabilitation is impossible. I am inclined to disagree with the utter disregard GP had for the study, but I also do not believe it can be directly replicated in American society as it stands today.
    - exe34 2y ago
      > also do not believe it can be directly replicated in American society as it stands today. amen to that. profit-making prisons are a pretty clever way around slavery laws.
    - vidarh 2y ago
      Norway had a brutal, US inspired prison system until the 1960s. Norway's most infamous prison (now closed) was explicitly built on plans copying a US prison design. Norway's current focus on reducing reoffending was a decades long path of prison reform and gradually figuring out what works.
    - mckn1ght 2y ago
      This is obvious to me. A different value system is required to approach justice differently. Sadly this indicates that it is not just our justice system that needs fixing, but instead our entire societal culture. It’s no wonder we have such outlying violence statistics, we are just more bloodthirsty. And this is coming from someone who believes that guns don’t kill people, people kill people. Yes, guns make it easier, but you have to want to kill first, and we simply have more of that per capita. Likewise, maybe the same society that views justice as retributive, is one that will fight tooth and nail to keep access to guns unchanged even in the face of elementary school massacres and toddlers accidentally discharging guns left lying around, as well as look the other way from abysmal mental health crises leading to dire situations that lead to a variety of violence and trauma. So yes, I agree that we won’t just see it replicated in American society anytime soon.
- yodon 2y ago
  >My estimation of the credibility of the so-called "actual data" is minimal to nonexistent. It sounds like ideologically motivated conclusions to push a left wing social agenda. So your ideology guarantees your assumptions are always correct but the other guy's ideology guarantees his assumptions are always "ideologically motivated"?

baggy_trough 2y ago

[flagged]

lazyasciiart 2y ago
So you think other people should bother to listen to your gut feelings instead.
- baggy_trough 2y ago
  Unfortunately we don't have much more to go on, given an academia that is overwhelmingly leftist, especially in the social sciences.
  - kaibee 2y ago
    > Unfortunately we don't have much more to go on, given an academia that is overwhelmingly leftist, especially in the social sciences. Yea its hard figure out the truth when you just dismiss all the evidence that goes against your priors.
  - lazyasciiart 2y ago
    Ahh, so anyone who knows what they are talking about disagrees with you and you think that’s a problem with their work.
    - baggy_trough 2y ago
      You don't think it's a problem that 99% of social study researchers are left wing?
      - lazyasciiart 2y ago
        100% of astronauts believe the world is a sphere.
        baggy_trough 2y ago
        Thank you for making my point.
exe34 2y ago
are you claiming that the Scandinavians are lying about their rates of recidivism? or that you believe that recidivism is indeed lower there than in the US, but it's due to something else than their focus on rehabilitation over punishment? I'm trying to figure out if you're arguing in good faith or if it would not be worth digging up the numbers for you.
- zdragnar 2y ago
  It is fair to consider the study suspect in that Scandinavian societies as a whole may contribute to decreased recidivism. Understanding the role that the penal system plays will have different outcomes in other countries with different social makeups and different values (broadly speaking) should not be discounted. That's not to say that rehabilitation is impossible. I am inclined to disagree with the utter disregard GP had for the study, but I also do not believe it can be directly replicated in American society as it stands today.
  - exe34 2y ago
    > also do not believe it can be directly replicated in American society as it stands today. amen to that. profit-making prisons are a pretty clever way around slavery laws.
  - vidarh 2y ago
    Norway had a brutal, US inspired prison system until the 1960s. Norway's most infamous prison (now closed) was explicitly built on plans copying a US prison design. Norway's current focus on reducing reoffending was a decades long path of prison reform and gradually figuring out what works.
  - mckn1ght 2y ago
    This is obvious to me. A different value system is required to approach justice differently. Sadly this indicates that it is not just our justice system that needs fixing, but instead our entire societal culture. It’s no wonder we have such outlying violence statistics, we are just more bloodthirsty. And this is coming from someone who believes that guns don’t kill people, people kill people. Yes, guns make it easier, but you have to want to kill first, and we simply have more of that per capita. Likewise, maybe the same society that views justice as retributive, is one that will fight tooth and nail to keep access to guns unchanged even in the face of elementary school massacres and toddlers accidentally discharging guns left lying around, as well as look the other way from abysmal mental health crises leading to dire situations that lead to a variety of violence and trauma. So yes, I agree that we won’t just see it replicated in American society anytime soon.
yodon 2y ago
>My estimation of the credibility of the so-called "actual data" is minimal to nonexistent. It sounds like ideologically motivated conclusions to push a left wing social agenda. So your ideology guarantees your assumptions are always correct but the other guy's ideology guarantees his assumptions are always "ideologically motivated"?