6 ms·

Beware of blind elitism

38 points by beshrkayali 14y ago

marcusf 14y ago
It's fantastic irony that my iPhone 4S gets this message on a page about not being elitist: "If you want to ensure the best experience, please install a browser that was developed after 2009."
- nyar 14y ago
  You should install a different browser.
  - rcgs 14y ago
    Shouldn't have to. Safari is perfectly adequate. Heck, I get the message on v20 of Google Chrome.
  - barrkel 14y ago
    I get the same message in the latest Firefox.
- hansbo 14y ago
  While banning Safari is very strange, the author acknowledges the browser issue: "I know many would fault me for [not supporting IE] on TNL.net but the design decision of not supporting older internet explorer browsers was based on analytics data that showed me that only 5% of my overall audience was using those" Remember, ignoring IE users is not necessarily about elitism, but can also be a financially sound decision.
  - kstenerud 14y ago
    It can also kill his future growth if he doesn't keep whitelisting each end every new browser signature (for find a better way to lock out old browser users). It's also not a good idea to be condescending to your users. The tone of that message is anything but friendly. The "banned" message mentioned in another comment even less so.
- benihana 14y ago
  Why the hell can't that guy's website support browsers developed before 2009? It's all text. Is that crazy italic on link hover (great bit of usability, that) not supported by pre-HTML5 browsers? Maybe it's not blind elitism, maybe it's forethought elitism.
  - ineedtosleep 14y ago
    Meh. It's not that big of a deal. You can still see the content and the content is done logically so there aren't any crazy layout issues in plaintext. Also, this seems to be happening because of his breakpoint at width <= 1024px I believe. Confirmed this on both Chrome dev and Firefox Aurora.
  - tristan_louis 14y ago
    Actually, it comes down to font handling (I'm the guy with the site). Webfonts, CSS3 positioning, and HTML5 semantic are not supported in browsers older than 2009. So you can read the stuff but it doesn't necessarily look as good.
- dasil003 14y ago
  He might want to update that to "...developed after 2009 and released before 2011".
zerostar07 14y ago
Contrary to what you may think from reading HN, most entrepreneurs are not elitists of this kind. My most popular gig was games for housewives.
ukgent2 14y ago
funny I go to the website and get Access Denied The owner of this website (www.tnl.net) has banned your access based on your browser's signature Seems he does not like browsers that strip all their headers. Is this an Ironic joke that I am not getting?
- tristan_louis 14y ago
  Can you send me a screenshot. That may have to do with my CDN but I want to look into it as this is not something I had planned for.
einhverfr 14y ago
I agree this is an issue in the tech world and it leads to dumbing of things down. When I first got into business, before I really fell into accounting software, I was using tech support services as an opening (I lived in a rural town of 3000 year-round residents). I started getting a number of elderly clients who had trouble with computers and no more luck than the rest of us calling Dell for help. So of course you get to know these people, and wow..... I had a customer who was getting alzheimers, but used to manage telephone and network cabling at Boeing, and another who was a former crossbar switch technician at AT&T. Wow, I've heard about crossbar switches but was confused about how they worked. Naturally my business has moved on, and some of these wonderful people have passed away, but it was an incredibly enriching experience. Many of these people were smart and technologically savvy. I found with a little attention to detail I could set up the computer for the Alzheimer's sufferer so that she could figure out how to do what she needed to do without having to learn it. And the other crossbar switch technician? well... he quickly became one of my favorite customers. He used his computer more than many people half his age, and when he wasn't on the computer he was in the wood shop. Amazing man. And to think I got to know him because Dell didn't consider his blue screens might be heat related (he had a broken heat sink retention assembly). I have spent most of my life in rural parts of the country. Flyover country as they call it. Most of the stereotypes are just plain wrong. Rural areas I have lived in, for example, don't tend to have political ideologies resembling the sort of conservatism that can come out of big cities in part because with fewer people around, there tends to be less of a heavy trend towards rugged individualism. And I don't think it's just where I lived. I think about the Bank of North Dakota, and it occurs to me that the county where I normally live used to have a tax-funded no-fare bus system until big city conservatives told us we couldn't do that. All the things you don't think there are in the country-side, there are. The danger here obviously is that a lot of tech talk regarding product development is slanted towards a market that doesn't exist. It's why I always say "work with the customer, understand their use cases, and work with them to make the interface easy." Customers are wonderful people if you listen to them.
- tomjen3 14y ago
  Not supporting the few customers who have problems like that (and which can't be solved by an outsourced script) may be more expensive that what Dell can expect to make from each customer. So it may be prudent from their side.
wpietri 14y ago
Great article. In particular, I like the story about the CEO meeting with a customer every day and then following up. If you run a real-world business like a restaurant or a corner store, you can't help but soak up details about the customer experience. But running virtual businesses it's easy to have no idea what's going on. (Indeed, a lot of people want to have no idea what's going on; look at the million suckers seeking "passive income" internet businesses.) Once you have the skill of talking to strangers, talking with customers is surprisingly easy. Most people love to talk about themselves and their experiences, especially if it lets them feel helpful. That's one of the things I think the Lean Startup folks have right: the sooner you start talking with potential customers, the more likely you are to build something that serves them well.

38 points by beshrkayali 14y ago

It's fantastic irony that my iPhone 4S gets this message on a page about not being elitist: "If you want to ensure the best experience, please install a browser that was developed after 2009."

nyar 14y ago
You should install a different browser.
- rcgs 14y ago
  Shouldn't have to. Safari is perfectly adequate. Heck, I get the message on v20 of Google Chrome.
- barrkel 14y ago
  I get the same message in the latest Firefox.
hansbo 14y ago
While banning Safari is very strange, the author acknowledges the browser issue: "I know many would fault me for [not supporting IE] on TNL.net but the design decision of not supporting older internet explorer browsers was based on analytics data that showed me that only 5% of my overall audience was using those" Remember, ignoring IE users is not necessarily about elitism, but can also be a financially sound decision.
- kstenerud 14y ago
  It can also kill his future growth if he doesn't keep whitelisting each end every new browser signature (for find a better way to lock out old browser users). It's also not a good idea to be condescending to your users. The tone of that message is anything but friendly. The "banned" message mentioned in another comment even less so.
benihana 14y ago
Why the hell can't that guy's website support browsers developed before 2009? It's all text. Is that crazy italic on link hover (great bit of usability, that) not supported by pre-HTML5 browsers? Maybe it's not blind elitism, maybe it's forethought elitism.
- ineedtosleep 14y ago
  Meh. It's not that big of a deal. You can still see the content and the content is done logically so there aren't any crazy layout issues in plaintext. Also, this seems to be happening because of his breakpoint at width <= 1024px I believe. Confirmed this on both Chrome dev and Firefox Aurora.
- tristan_louis 14y ago
  Actually, it comes down to font handling (I'm the guy with the site). Webfonts, CSS3 positioning, and HTML5 semantic are not supported in browsers older than 2009. So you can read the stuff but it doesn't necessarily look as good.
dasil003 14y ago
He might want to update that to "...developed after 2009 and released before 2011".

zerostar07 14y ago

Contrary to what you may think from reading HN, most entrepreneurs are not elitists of this kind. My most popular gig was games for housewives.

ukgent2 14y ago

funny I go to the website and get Access Denied The owner of this website (www.tnl.net) has banned your access based on your browser's signature Seems he does not like browsers that strip all their headers. Is this an Ironic joke that I am not getting?

tristan_louis 14y ago
Can you send me a screenshot. That may have to do with my CDN but I want to look into it as this is not something I had planned for.

einhverfr 14y ago

I agree this is an issue in the tech world and it leads to dumbing of things down. When I first got into business, before I really fell into accounting software, I was using tech support services as an opening (I lived in a rural town of 3000 year-round residents). I started getting a number of elderly clients who had trouble with computers and no more luck than the rest of us calling Dell for help. So of course you get to know these people, and wow..... I had a customer who was getting alzheimers, but used to manage telephone and network cabling at Boeing, and another who was a former crossbar switch technician at AT&T. Wow, I've heard about crossbar switches but was confused about how they worked. Naturally my business has moved on, and some of these wonderful people have passed away, but it was an incredibly enriching experience. Many of these people were smart and technologically savvy. I found with a little attention to detail I could set up the computer for the Alzheimer's sufferer so that she could figure out how to do what she needed to do without having to learn it. And the other crossbar switch technician? well... he quickly became one of my favorite customers. He used his computer more than many people half his age, and when he wasn't on the computer he was in the wood shop. Amazing man. And to think I got to know him because Dell didn't consider his blue screens might be heat related (he had a broken heat sink retention assembly). I have spent most of my life in rural parts of the country. Flyover country as they call it. Most of the stereotypes are just plain wrong. Rural areas I have lived in, for example, don't tend to have political ideologies resembling the sort of conservatism that can come out of big cities in part because with fewer people around, there tends to be less of a heavy trend towards rugged individualism. And I don't think it's just where I lived. I think about the Bank of North Dakota, and it occurs to me that the county where I normally live used to have a tax-funded no-fare bus system until big city conservatives told us we couldn't do that. All the things you don't think there are in the country-side, there are. The danger here obviously is that a lot of tech talk regarding product development is slanted towards a market that doesn't exist. It's why I always say "work with the customer, understand their use cases, and work with them to make the interface easy." Customers are wonderful people if you listen to them.

tomjen3 14y ago
Not supporting the few customers who have problems like that (and which can't be solved by an outsourced script) may be more expensive that what Dell can expect to make from each customer. So it may be prudent from their side.

wpietri 14y ago

Great article. In particular, I like the story about the CEO meeting with a customer every day and then following up. If you run a real-world business like a restaurant or a corner store, you can't help but soak up details about the customer experience. But running virtual businesses it's easy to have no idea what's going on. (Indeed, a lot of people want to have no idea what's going on; look at the million suckers seeking "passive income" internet businesses.) Once you have the skill of talking to strangers, talking with customers is surprisingly easy. Most people love to talk about themselves and their experiences, especially if it lets them feel helpful. That's one of the things I think the Lean Startup folks have right: the sooner you start talking with potential customers, the more likely you are to build something that serves them well.