4 ms·

Have been to any actual socialist country? Have experienced what scarcity means and what it feels like to be locked into your own country without a real chance

Have been to any actual socialist country? Have experienced what scarcity means and what it feels like to be locked into your own country without a real chance of leaving until you reach retirement age?

ahartmetz 2y ago
I have yet to see someone advocating for actual socialism. There is a huge difference between social democracy and socialism, but it's a popular argumentation technique in the US to pretend that they are the same.
- deleted 2y ago
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- mytailorisrich 2y ago
  There are socialist parties in every European countries, and some of them get a lot of votes. In Germany, Die Linke is anti-capitalist and advocates "actual socialism" and current has 39 MPs in the Bundestag. In France, LFI (France Unbowed) is anti-capitalist and advocates "actual socialism" and currently has 71 MPs in the French parliament (second largest party by number of MPs...). There are also several smaller parties that are more "hardcore", including the historic French Communist Party that still has 8 MPs and 14 Senators... Now I do agree that social democracy is not socialism, but again, plenty of socialists in Europe, too. On a related note, when people claim that they are "anti-capitalist" (which seems to be more popular than claiming to be socialist) it does not really leave many alternatives, just semantic flavours of socialism.
  - CrLf 2y ago
    Perhaps it's important to point out that socialism != communism. I think this is something the US really doesn't understand about Europe. Socialism is about putting people first and making sure no one is left behind by society, which is the opposite of communism (and capitalism). In fact, US capitalism is much closer to communism regarding societal outcomes (social injustice, power concentration) than European socialism. It is very much possible to be anti-capitalist and anti-communist at the same time .
    - mytailorisrich 2y ago
      > Socialism is about putting people first and making sure no one is left behind by society No, that's not what socialism is but I won't develop here because the definition is so available and well-known.
      - CrLf 2y ago
        You may want to look into the ideologies of European political parties that have "socialist" in their names, instead of relying on definitions from the Soviet revolution. Socialism in Europe is social democracy. The only difference between "socialist" and "social democratic" parties in Europe is how fractionally close to the right or left side of the center line they are.
        davrosthedalek 2y ago
        For the more central block parties, this is correct. But for many ultra-left and ultra-right parties, this is not necessarily true. There are true Marxist or Stalinist blocks in many of the ultra-left. There are straight-up fascists in the right wing "national socialist" parties.
        tcfhgj 2y ago
        what is ultra-left?
        _19qg 2y ago
        ultra-right parties may have "socialist" in their name, but they are typically not in a sense connected to Marx&Hegel. Example: the "National-Sozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei" (Hitler's NSDAP) was not marxist.
        davrosthedalek 2y ago
        Yes, and I never said so. But the post I replied to implied that socialist=social democratic. And neither the marxist/communists in the far-left parties (and sometimes the whole party) nor the fascists in the far-right parties are social democratic. (Of course there is no such thing as a "social democracy", in the sense that the government structure is modified from a "non-social" democracy. But there can be democrats who push for a socially oriented governance. For example: Let's have affordable healthcare. Yes, that means that it cost more for rich people.. Democrats here means "people who want to take part in a democracy". not the US party. Not that they are liberal in the European sense either.) )
  - _19qg 2y ago
    For the US reader: > 39 MPs in the Bundestag Out of currently 733 MPs with a parliament with "proportional representation", where the number of seats is proportional to the number of votes (Germany-wide, not local). Die Linke thus has 5.3% seats in the Bundestag. Thus this is not "a lot of votes" in relation to the voting population. > "anti-capitalist" (which seems to be more popular than claiming to be socialist) Anti-capitalism is found in right-wing parties, too. Like the German AFD.
    - davrosthedalek 2y ago
      I don't think this gives an accurate picture. Even a 5% party can have an outsized influence on the politics. And it's not clear what the next election will bring. > Anti-capitalism is found in right-wing parties, too. Like the German AFD. Well, many/most of their proponents now seem to be fans of an older party which had national socialism in the name, so no surprise. In reality, the market rules and social net in most of Europe and US are not /that/ different. Both allow private ownership of production, both have market economy. Yes, the US says it's a free market, but it isn't. It's maybe free-er. Germany has a "social market economy", which mostly means that some (insurance) costs are lifted from the incur-er and distributed socially. Both have a social security equivalent, with Germany better coverage for unemployment, and US better retirement, AFAICT.
      - lispm 2y ago
        > Even a 5% party can have an outsized influence on the politics Die Linke does not have an "outsized influence". It's also shrinking. It may seem to have "outsized influence" for someone from the US or the UK, with their different voting system, which practically creates a two-party system. In a proportional representation system smaller parties have influence, too - for example by being a coalition member. Die Linke has not been a member of a coalition in Germany, so far, and it is not expected that this will change. > which mostly means that some (insurance) costs are lifted from the incur-er and distributed socially That's a very narrow view. Try to get a German-style workers council at an US company. Good luck!
        2y ago
Ladsko 2y ago
The point is to meet somewhere in the middle and find compromises that prohibit uncontrolled growth of wealth and power by single individuals without crippling the economy too much. It does not have to be one extreme or the other.
rsynnott 2y ago
There is a significant middle-ground between Libertarian Utopia/Dystopia (delete as appropriate) and North Korea, you realise?
andrepd 2y ago
Almost nobody except fringe groups means "Marxism-Leninism" when they say "socialism". I'm sure you understand this.
jeffreygoesto 2y ago
I spent enough parts of my youth in one, to know, yes. I know how you adapt to the inevitable.

ahartmetz 2y ago

I have yet to see someone advocating for actual socialism. There is a huge difference between social democracy and socialism, but it's a popular argumentation technique in the US to pretend that they are the same.

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
mytailorisrich 2y ago
There are socialist parties in every European countries, and some of them get a lot of votes. In Germany, Die Linke is anti-capitalist and advocates "actual socialism" and current has 39 MPs in the Bundestag. In France, LFI (France Unbowed) is anti-capitalist and advocates "actual socialism" and currently has 71 MPs in the French parliament (second largest party by number of MPs...). There are also several smaller parties that are more "hardcore", including the historic French Communist Party that still has 8 MPs and 14 Senators... Now I do agree that social democracy is not socialism, but again, plenty of socialists in Europe, too. On a related note, when people claim that they are "anti-capitalist" (which seems to be more popular than claiming to be socialist) it does not really leave many alternatives, just semantic flavours of socialism.
- CrLf 2y ago
  Perhaps it's important to point out that socialism != communism. I think this is something the US really doesn't understand about Europe. Socialism is about putting people first and making sure no one is left behind by society, which is the opposite of communism (and capitalism). In fact, US capitalism is much closer to communism regarding societal outcomes (social injustice, power concentration) than European socialism. It is very much possible to be anti-capitalist and anti-communist at the same time .
  - mytailorisrich 2y ago
    > Socialism is about putting people first and making sure no one is left behind by society No, that's not what socialism is but I won't develop here because the definition is so available and well-known.
    - CrLf 2y ago
      You may want to look into the ideologies of European political parties that have "socialist" in their names, instead of relying on definitions from the Soviet revolution. Socialism in Europe is social democracy. The only difference between "socialist" and "social democratic" parties in Europe is how fractionally close to the right or left side of the center line they are.
      - davrosthedalek 2y ago
        For the more central block parties, this is correct. But for many ultra-left and ultra-right parties, this is not necessarily true. There are true Marxist or Stalinist blocks in many of the ultra-left. There are straight-up fascists in the right wing "national socialist" parties.
        tcfhgj 2y ago
        what is ultra-left?
        _19qg 2y ago
        ultra-right parties may have "socialist" in their name, but they are typically not in a sense connected to Marx&Hegel. Example: the "National-Sozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei" (Hitler's NSDAP) was not marxist.
        davrosthedalek 2y ago
        Yes, and I never said so. But the post I replied to implied that socialist=social democratic. And neither the marxist/communists in the far-left parties (and sometimes the whole party) nor the fascists in the far-right parties are social democratic. (Of course there is no such thing as a "social democracy", in the sense that the government structure is modified from a "non-social" democracy. But there can be democrats who push for a socially oriented governance. For example: Let's have affordable healthcare. Yes, that means that it cost more for rich people.. Democrats here means "people who want to take part in a democracy". not the US party. Not that they are liberal in the European sense either.) )
- _19qg 2y ago
  For the US reader: > 39 MPs in the Bundestag Out of currently 733 MPs with a parliament with "proportional representation", where the number of seats is proportional to the number of votes (Germany-wide, not local). Die Linke thus has 5.3% seats in the Bundestag. Thus this is not "a lot of votes" in relation to the voting population. > "anti-capitalist" (which seems to be more popular than claiming to be socialist) Anti-capitalism is found in right-wing parties, too. Like the German AFD.
  - davrosthedalek 2y ago
    I don't think this gives an accurate picture. Even a 5% party can have an outsized influence on the politics. And it's not clear what the next election will bring. > Anti-capitalism is found in right-wing parties, too. Like the German AFD. Well, many/most of their proponents now seem to be fans of an older party which had national socialism in the name, so no surprise. In reality, the market rules and social net in most of Europe and US are not /that/ different. Both allow private ownership of production, both have market economy. Yes, the US says it's a free market, but it isn't. It's maybe free-er. Germany has a "social market economy", which mostly means that some (insurance) costs are lifted from the incur-er and distributed socially. Both have a social security equivalent, with Germany better coverage for unemployment, and US better retirement, AFAICT.
    - lispm 2y ago
      > Even a 5% party can have an outsized influence on the politics Die Linke does not have an "outsized influence". It's also shrinking. It may seem to have "outsized influence" for someone from the US or the UK, with their different voting system, which practically creates a two-party system. In a proportional representation system smaller parties have influence, too - for example by being a coalition member. Die Linke has not been a member of a coalition in Germany, so far, and it is not expected that this will change. > which mostly means that some (insurance) costs are lifted from the incur-er and distributed socially That's a very narrow view. Try to get a German-style workers council at an US company. Good luck!
      - 2y ago

Ladsko 2y ago

The point is to meet somewhere in the middle and find compromises that prohibit uncontrolled growth of wealth and power by single individuals without crippling the economy too much. It does not have to be one extreme or the other.

rsynnott 2y ago

There is a significant middle-ground between Libertarian Utopia/Dystopia (delete as appropriate) and North Korea, you realise?

andrepd 2y ago

Almost nobody except fringe groups means "Marxism-Leninism" when they say "socialism". I'm sure you understand this.

jeffreygoesto 2y ago

I spent enough parts of my youth in one, to know, yes. I know how you adapt to the inevitable.