4 ms·

I love watching CCC every years though I rarely catch it live. Since we have a couple of days to wait for this year's talk, I'll ask. Does it bother anyone else

• dewey 2y ago
  When I was there where was always a group of people sitting in the first row live-translating the talks. That was many years ago so this is probably even better now.
• sneak 2y ago
  Just because people are good at English doesn't mean their English skills are up to giving a permanently-archived talk to tens of thousands of people at the 1st or 2nd most important hacker con on the planet. I'm all for giving a presentation in the language you're best at. Let machine translation (or manual translation) pick up the slack, not one person's possibly-mediocre ESL skills. I also can speak German but I avoid doing so when technical accuracy is paramount, because sometimes, small details really matter.
  • hengheng 2y ago
    I'm a native speaker and I hate how people have been stumbling through their presentations, lacking basic vocabulary, being dragged along by their bullet points. It wasn't even the accent, it was that the language occupied their minds so much that they couldn't think about what they had to say or how they were saying it. Lots of talks felt like watching a ninth grader in front of the classroom. Now some of these guys weren't amazing presenters in German either, but my point is that they should not have to be. Some people simply are dry explainers and they don't naturally entertain. Nothing wrong with that at all, especially with such nerdy topics. But in those cases, I'd much prefer a lengthy blog article, or maybe a podcast interview with a capable host. Please, CCC, don't send these people on a stage that they don't enjoy when you could also work with them to get their stuff across. And with how much is consumed as VOD, I don't think the live talk brings a lot to the table anymore. There could be live Q&A sessions for those who read article or heard the podcast interview. (I'd argue the same for an academic context by the way - anything above seminar size is either a celebration or a sermon, but not a discussion.) My best experience at CCC was to literally stumble over bunnie on the side of a hallway where he was sitting against the wall, introducing his own ARM laptop to a dozen of people or two. And don't tell me this doesn't scale - he has also gotten his message across in ways that scale. But there was finally a natural way of asking questions in a back and forth manner that wasn't in front of a 500 people audience.
    • Sebb767 2y ago
      > Please, CCC, don't send these people on a stage that they don't enjoy when you could also work with them to get their stuff across. The speakers are not selected by the CCC; they have to apply with a synopsis of their talk.
      • dingensundso 2y ago
        And then some of the talks they are selected.
    • sneak 2y ago
      This is the conference equivalent of "this meeting could have been an email" - "this talk could have been a blog post". Perhaps you could do us all the service of making a blog post for each of the CCC talks this year? :D
• phlo 2y ago
  > AFAIR they don't do multilingual restreams (automated or otherwise) like some other online events. They do. There's a team of interpreters at CCC who translate most talks between English and German, and to some other languages. As with most things CCC, it's all volunteer-driven and done on a best-effort basis, but it's there. When interpretation is available, I prefer talks that are given in whichever language the presenter is most comfortable in. Presenting in front of a large audience is stressful enough as it is, so IMO it makes a ton of sense _not_ to worry about doing that in a second/third language, and delegating that part of the presentation to someone else instead.
• namibj 2y ago
  I just checked; they do in fact upload the live dub audio streams, see this talk from last year which was given in English but this is the German dub: https://media.ccc.de/v/37c3-12340-37c3_infrastructure_review#l=deu&t=71 https://media.ccc.de/v/37c3-12340-37c3_infrastructure_review...
• Scarblac 2y ago
  On the one hand, communication is easiest if everybody uses the same language. On the other, the dominance of English is one thing that gives US too much cultural power. I think I'm happy that there is still content in other languages out there.
  • usr1106 2y ago
    Communication is not good if everybody speaks the same language at a different level. I have worked in English for close to 30 years and been at many international conferences, presented myself a couple of times. Still I feel handicapped in some presentations/discussions that are dominated by native speakers not using offshore English.
    • davrosthedalek 2y ago
      Hmm, not sure, I'm non-native English speaker as well. I have a lot more problems understanding/being understood by non-native English speakers from a different language background than I or they have with a native (American) English speaker. Or do you mean America with offshore?
      • Y_Y 2y ago
        What you say matches my experience. I grew up speaking "local" English, but now my day-to-day language is "international" English. I find it funny when people compliment me on my clear and simple English, because when I talk to my family it's anything but. In my job I deal with tons of non-native speakers, and in some cases I'll end up "translating" between two speakers who can't understand each other, even though it's all nominally English. This is especially the case when they're from different parts of the world and accent and native language strongly influence their speech.
      • usr1106 2y ago
        Offshore English is a concept to make the language more understandable to non-native speakers. Avoid rare words and idioms. Avoid everything that wouldn't be taught in foreign schools or common in your field. You won't get a Nobel prize in literature using it, but international colleagues will thank you.
• sourcepluck 2y ago
  I think it's great. I've good passable German, not enough to really follow the details of a fast-paced, complicated talk, so I'm practically shut off from German media (at this level, anyway). But still, diversity is good, and the American-Anglification of all things cultural and linguistical is not necessarily a net positive. As in, I'm aware there's good points to it, but it's not an entirely clear picture, and some alternative things existing is probably good. How many 12-year old Germans who dislike English for one reason or another found CCC and had major positive changes occur in their lives, ya know.
  • HeckFeck 2y ago
    Some thoughts are too complex for English. Three genders means they are always one step ahead of the French. Shunning Latin root words means you can be more efficient. German persists for good reasons.
    • mr_mitm 2y ago
      Can you give an example of a thought that cannot be expressed in English? That sounds like quite the claim without anything backing it up. I speak fluent German for what it's worth.
      • bratwurst3000 2y ago
        the only i can think of is sentence with comatas. In german you can have as many „hauptsätze“ in one sentence as long they are separated by a comma. for example what thomas berndhard does is crazy. its one sentence per page. i think in german you can be more precise in one sentence. but that will be a hell of a sentence.
        • dpassens 2y ago
          Can't you just use a semicolon to do the same in English? And even if not, just because an idea is split over several sentences doesn't mean you can't communicate it. That's what paragraphs are for.
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• korfuri 2y ago
  Hi, I'm a long standing CCC interpreter (volunteer of course). We aim to interpret live 100% of the talks in German (* we do not always interpret things that aren't strictly speaking talks, like poetry readings or performance art, although we try to make these as accessible as we can). We also interpret various talks into other languages - we have a sizeable team working on French and Spanish interpretation, and depending on volunteer availability, we are keen to be target any spoken language. For this talk you are interested in, I'm very confident it will be interpreted into English. You can find our work on media.ccc.de both on the streams and recorded talks. If you're attending live we have lower latency audio streams available on-site, check out c3lingo.org.
  • miki123211 2y ago
    Thank you, I didn't realize this existed. I have accessibility needs (screen reader user) that make subtitles less fun to use than they would otherwise be, and I speak no German, so those interpreted recordings would be really great for me. I assume you don't publish on Youtube? That's how I usually consume CCC content, mostly due to YT's recommendation algorithms and excellent cross-device "continue playback" support.
    • namibj 2y ago
      Until very recently YouTube did not support multiple user-choice audio tracks on a video, so they would have needed to be uploaded separately. Maybe it will change this year, though!
      • bdhcuidbebe 2y ago
        anton petrov channnel that i follow recently started offering multiple auto dubbed audio track, which confused me as it would auto select the german dub for me. i dont know german ;-)
    • korfuri 2y ago
      I'm glad we can be of service to you! There used to be a live captioning team writing subtitles but I think that effort stopped. I heard people were looking at AI-based captioning but I have not kept up with the plans for this year. I know in previous years talks were published on YT, I assume this will still be the case this year. Normally the VOC team does miracles to publish incredibly quickly too, so you should be able to have the recorded talks online same-day.
• zxexz 2y ago
  I've been to CCC (and hope to continue doing so again when life ceases to get in the way), and it's never bothered me in the slightest. The Congress is organized by the Chaos Computer Club, founded in Germany and consists primarily of decentralized clubs/associations that themselves are German-speaking. The talks (often) live-dubbed English, and post-talk the talks are translated as well (both the live translation and the post-recording subtitling are done by volunteers, BTW). The majority of congress-goers speak German as a first language, and frankly many of those who don't speak German still attend German talks - thanks to the translators (you can even get a sense of this by watching the talks on the website; there are many instances of English being used for questions and even answers in the Q&A sections of German talks). P ersonally, I believe the world would be less interesting if everything of interest was in the same language - I think all (major, at least - those with a budget for translators/enough volunteers to translate) conferences should allow the speakers to give their talks in the language they are comfortable in. Anecdotally, I've never had passable German conversationally, but have studied the language a fair bit, and watching so many German talks with translation (both remotely and in-person) actually passively brought up my understanding of the language that I could understand most of what was being said; to the point that I felt comfortable over the years passively understanding the German language outside of the congress in most situations. Sure, being able to to speak in another language comfortably is ideal, but being able to listen, even just passively, in another language really feels like a superpower.
• bleakenthusiasm 2y ago
  They usually do Translation live, so I'd be very surprised if they didn't offer them in the stream as well. They always offer English and I think some talks have been live-transcribed, too, for people with hearing disabilities, but that might be automated by now. Personally I think it's good you are not forced to present in English. I know enough people who are not comfortable enough with English to present in it. There are also some niche topics that have a focus on Germany. For these sometimes German brings a bit of nuance/local flair that you can't really translate. For these I'm happy that German is available as the original and then the translators will do their best to provide an English second best. To some degree I find it inevitable that conferences situated in countries that are not native English speaking will have some program points in the local language. As long as they offer help with understanding the content, I don't see an issue with this, regardless of how big/influential they are.
• rsynnott 2y ago
  > Does it bother anyone else that some talks are in German, or does it bother anyone else that they find themselves bothered that the talks are in German? There’s generally live translation (into English, German, and sometimes French). The translations are also available for download (eg https://media.ccc.de/c/37c3/ https://media.ccc.de/c/37c3/).
• ulnarkressty 2y ago
  I have commented about this in the past and got downvoted for it. There is a reason why virtually all international conferences require presentations and talks to be held in English. If this was a German-only event it would be understandable, however as it is written on their website the CCC congress is "the biggest European hacker gathering and has grown into one of the most important conferences on digital transformation." Another argument put forward is the existence of English dubs for every video. I have found the quality of these dubs varies a lot, since they are run by volunteers and not people experienced in live translation. In some talks there can be segments without any translation, and in one case the translator even "gave up" because the speaker was talking too fast.
  • lispm 2y ago
    > "the biggest European hacker gathering and has grown into one of the most important conferences on digital transformation." "biggest European hacker gathering" -> still most participants are from Germany, that's where the Chaos Computer Club is located. The club itself is organized into local groups all over the country (plus some in neighbor countries).
  • aveao 2y ago
    It's a balance. Congress aims to be accessible ticket cost-wise to all. Professional interpreters cost a lot of money, and as such it's done by volunteers. There's little to be done while maintaining the spirit of the event. Nothing prevents people from redubbing talks either, which may honestly be a good community effort.
• crest 2y ago
  There is a realtime translation team that's available as an audio track in the life streams as. The translation is done be volunteers. The last ~5 years they managed to translate all the German and English slots on the official stages. Some less common language options may be provided later e.g. Spanish, French, Chinese, funni dialects like Plattdeutsch, etc.
  • Y_Y 2y ago
    Thanks for the info, I don't know how I wasn't aware. May it serve as a warning, I put myself in mortal danger recently by referring to Plattdeutsch as a dialect (rather than a language). I have no skin in that game but some people feel strongly about it. I'm general though I'd say that: > a shprakh iz a dyalekt mit an armey un flot[0] (Here I've rendered the Yiddish in Latin rather than Hebrew for emphasis.) [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_language_is_a_dialect_with_an_army_and_navy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_language_is_a_dialect_with_a...
• jyounker 2y ago
  It is a German conference. It was started by Germans. It is organized first and foremost by Germans. It happens in Germany. I find it arrogant to think that presenters should speak a language other than German.
  • Y_Y 2y ago
    Have you been to a German university? Plenty of technical subjects will be taught in English even if the speaker and audience are German. There surely us a kind of arrogance that demands Germans speak English, but I don't see anyone in this thread expressing that. (I won't even begin to talk about the variety of dialects and identities contained within the modern German state, except to say that there is plenty of arrogance to be found there for those who seek it.)
    • hooli_gan 2y ago
      Yeah, but they do it to attract foreign students. Otherwise everything would be in German with english technical terms, where appropriate.
      • Y_Y 2y ago
        I don't think that's true
• davrosthedalek 2y ago
  As a native German speaker living in the US, I have mixed feelings: - Talks in German feel slightly less, hmm, professional? Maybe it's the field I grow up in (physics). Like, ok, in your studies you speak German, but when you grow up and go to big-boy conferences, it's English. The Congress should be big-boy league. - Also, realistically, many technical terms are English, so the a German talk might have to make hard choices. CPU, not "zentrale Recheneinheit" - At the same time, I like that it lowers the barriers for entry. Speakers and visitors who are not fluent in English can participate. - Personally, though, I prefer a good fluent German presentation from a cringy English one. As a German native speaker, typical German mistakes in English irritate me more than others, I think, so I found some talks given in English hard to follow. Pet peeve: Technology. I think that's a better Shibboleth than Flash-Thunder-Welcome. - Realistically though, the congress is a worldwide phenomenon, and important, and as English is the current lingua franca (hah), I think they should encourage English presentations, or at least English slides. (Because they provide translated audio in the recordings!) - Lastly, I can only encourage everyone to learn more languages, at a young age. I kick myself I didn't. But even in languages which are relatively close, like English and German (compared to, say, Japanese), I found that one language has concepts the other one doesn't, and that changes how you think about things. For example, English has accuracy and precision, with, at least in physics, different meanings. In German, it's both "Genauigkeit". (Edited: Formatting)
  • lispm 2y ago
    > "Realistically though, the congress is a worldwide phenomenon" Actually it is an open meeting of the German members of the CCC. What you see online is an important part of the congress, but it is only a part of the whole thing. Much more it is a gathering of activists. Thus its from the CCC for CCC. Guests are welcome. Since the talks maybe interesting to a larger audience they are streamed and translated in real-time. Visit the congress in Hamburg and you are beamed to an alternate reality for four days and nights, meeting all kinds of interesting people in person. That experience is a bit more mind-blowing than seeing translated talks online. ;-) People from outside Germany are visiting the congress.
    • davrosthedalek 2y ago
• lispm 2y ago
  I live in Hamburg/Germany, where the CCC is hosted. It would feel strange to go to a German hacker congress in a German city and people would expect that everything is in English, first. It's organized by volunteers from various CCC groups from all over Germany and not by a commercial congress provider. The result may look like a "professional" congress, but that's the result by countless hours of volunteers enabling it. Generally there is much more to the congress, then the talks you can see online. It's a large gathering (> 14k participants with >2500k volunteer organizers) of people from all kinds of German grassroots hacker domains... with a lot of groups meeting there and presenting themselves. The Hamburg congress center, where it takes place, is not the largest location possible, but it currently seems to be the best mix of a congress center in the middle of a large German city with lots of rooms and space for all the groups. Having CCC talks translated to and from English/... is fine, as it's actually done. https://events.ccc.de/en/2024/11/26/call-for-interpreters-translate-38c3/ https://events.ccc.de/en/2024/11/26/call-for-interpreters-tr... says: > We interpret ALL talks in the three main halls and the two community stages live and in real-time. German talks are interpreted into English, and vice versa. Our work is transmitted live in the lecture halls, streamed to the Internet, and recordings are published on CCC sites and YouTube. We have another channel where we interpret into more languages, this is transmitted and published in the same way.