12 ms·

Converting shopping malls into apartments [video]

46 points by debo_ 2y ago

ghaff 2y ago
Housing conversions are great and all that. But we're talking 250 sq. ft. units here and not exactly in what a lot of people would consider prime locations. The affordable housing issue is mostly around what people generally consider prime locations.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- jasonjayr 2y ago
  The Providence Arcade Mall works for this conversion because it is in a prime location in Downtown Providence. There are some pretty high-powered offices near by, RI School of Design is a brisk 5-10 min walk away, Kennedy Plaza, the (for now) central hub for the state's bus system is a 2 minute walk away.
  - ghaff 2y ago
    If you're good with a pied a terre in downtown Providence, this is probably an interesting option. Not sure how common that is. ADDED: That was probably unfairly snarky. But I'm not sure how many people complaining about housing affordability really have in mind very small places in peripheral cities (even fairly nice ones like Providence).
Mengkudulangsat 2y ago
Malls have central HVAC, without which the common areas get dank very quickly. I doubt those can be operated affordably with residential tenants.
- binarymax 2y ago
  Yeah not just the HVAC but the entire common area maintenance and pro rata property tax is a high portion of commercial rent in malls. A commercial tenant for the same space would probably pay 5x to 10x what an equivalent residential market rate would be.
  - jasonjayr 2y ago
    A vacant space without a commercial tenant is paying 5 x $0, so ... might as well put the space to good use.
    - binarymax 2y ago
      Conversions are really expensive. If the property won't be sustainable with residential rent then why bother doing the conversion in the first place? Seems like a frustrating way to burn money. I'm not saying it's impossible, but people drastically underestimate the complexity and cost of converting a commercial property into a residential one. All the codes are different, and all the requirements are different.
      - Suppafly 2y ago
        Plus these old malls are often garbage buildings which is why they aren't viable as a mall anymore anyway. Better to send a few million cleaning and preparing the site and then build something that's actually viable for housing.
        ghaff 2y ago
        At the end of the day, the buildings in a deadish mall or shopping center aren't worth much. Maybe the land is worth something but, in that case, why not start fresh with a purpose-built development, either housing or a mix of housing and retail.
        Suppafly 2y ago
        yeah that's my point
        ghaff 2y ago
        There are some older buildings in urban centers that probably make sense to repurpose without just tearing them down. but the idea that you'd take extraordinary measures to try to repurpose the Sears, JC Penny, and other mall properties around where I live is just silly rather than just starting from scratch--which doesn't seem to be going much of anywhere.
neverartful 2y ago
I wouldn't want to live a structure shared by such a large number of people (fire hazard risk).
- nayuki 2y ago
  Fire sprinklers are common in buildings that hold hundreds of people. Sprinklers are basically nonexistent in single-family houses. Sprinklers are extremely effective at putting out fires and preventing their spread. Fun fact: Ontario, Canada started mandating fire sprinklers in 4+ storey residential buildings started in the year 2010. Taking into account the lag in planning, design, and construction, it effectively means that any high-rise apartment building constructed after 2015 has sprinklers, and earlier ones don't.
fngjdflmdflg 2y ago
I can see how the apartments showed in the video would appeal to some types of people, although I personally would not like it. The mall is still open and has multiple stores in it that are convenient. When a mall is fully abandoned however I don't see what the appeal would be. And it's not like you can just put up some walls in a store and call it an apartment, work needs to be done to convert it anyway. I'm not sure if there is a clear benefit of retrofitting shops into apartments in a more abandoned mall. Surely there are big costs savings with this approach but there are other factors that would need to be considered.
Animats 2y ago
That worked for the arcade in Providence because it's a pre-airconditioning long, narrow building with exterior windows. But what do you do with a big box the size of a Walmart? Most areas don't allow windowless apartments. Most successful conversions are of older buildings with small floors and many windows.[1] Modern buildings with a central utility core and large floors are not good candidates for conversion. There have been some attempts at long, narrow apartments to maximize access to the outside walls, but the result is a slum. Tearing down malls to build apartments is more common than converting the big boxy spaces. [1] https://bipartisanpolicy.org/explainer/vacant-offices-housing-conversion/ https://bipartisanpolicy.org/explainer/vacant-offices-housin...
- yowayb 2y ago
  Funny you mentioned Wal-Mart because they've already been providing support to an effective housing solution in the form of letting RVs stay in their parking lot. I've come across many people that this type of housing seems to work quite well for. Of course, I wonder what might be the repercussions? Might require some oversight to prevent devolving into tent cities? But then again, I'm not personally aware of tent cities causing much harm (to anyone outside of the tent city)
  - gedpeck 2y ago
    RVs in the parking lot of Walmart is an effective housing solution? I think not.
    - fliglr 2y ago
      Why not? It increases supply
      - singleshot_ 2y ago
        It increases the supply of blight, perhaps.
        2y ago
csomar 2y ago
This looks like a cheap shack house inside an old mall and it's also incredibly small. Value for money is ridiculous. The tenant also doesn't seem very happy with it and only accepting the situation because alternatives are more expensive. You don't need apartments inside a mall. You can a building on top of the mall a 20 story building and have the mall on the first floors. This way the tenants can enjoy full and real apartments while the convenience of the mall is one elevator ride away. This is not some sci-fi shit, many places in Asia are doing it. The situation in the US is going from sad to pathetic.
- mcny 2y ago
  > You can a building on top of the mall a 20 story building and have the mall on the first floors. This way the tenants can enjoy full and real apartments while the convenience of the mall is one elevator ride away. Absolutely. For anywhere other than the biggest cities, I suspect you don't even need twenty stories if you have enough of these buildings that are about eight to ten stories above the tall first floor for retail AND an excellent public transit infrastructure so you don't need parking lots. I think the big problem is people don't want bad public transit to replace cars and are rightly skeptical of any plans that promises good results long term after an initial period of pain where we don't have parking space but we also don't have an excellent public transit. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mixed-use_development https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mixed-use_development
- Dracophoenix 2y ago
  > You can a building on top of the mall a 20 story building and have the mall on the first floors. This way the tenants can enjoy full and real apartments while the convenience of the mall is one elevator ride away. Even in Asia, those residential mall complexes usually house very expensive luxury apartments.
  - csomar 2y ago
    > Even in Asia, those residential mall complexes usually house very expensive luxury apartments. No. Some of them are expensive. Most of them are middle-class.
phire 2y ago
Nobody is converting suburban shopping malls into appartments. The Arcade is a special case, because it's actually a central-city mall, located right in the heart of the city, near a bunch of other apartment and office buildings. It's basically the complete opposite of your typical suburban mall, miles from anywhere, surrounded by way too many parking lots. The other examples this video briefly touches on are something completely different, and far more interesting. These aren't simple conversions of shopping mall interiors, they are projects that are tearing down large chunks of existing suburban shopping malls (and their parking lots) and attempting to re-invent them as a town centre, with added outdoor shopping, high-density housing (brand new apartment buildings), parks and office space. It's far more than just converting malls into housing. It's an attempt at a completely new approach.
- ghaff 2y ago
  The dead or mostly dead malls around where I live don't seem very attractive for housing or mixed residential/retail. They'd still be very car-centric, aren't in especially upscale areas, and I'm not sure how much you'd actually want to preserve. The closest I'm specifically aware of in the US in Santana Row in the South Bay but that's not really residential (maybe there's some but I'm only aware of the hotels)--and, while there are a fair number of restaurant options--you don't really have groceries or other retail that people would want on a day to day basis AFAIK.
pzo 2y ago
In malaysia a lot of residential buildings are build on top of mall altogether but those are planned ahead from the start and those residential buildings are 40 levels high. 3 levels are mostly reserved for car parking for residents, 1 floor have shared facilities like swimming pool, gym. Top level as playground room or cowork or for organising barbeque or birthday party. Lifts are super fast. Then you have malls attached to those residential buildings and those are usually connected with nearby public transport. Sadly in western world we don't build such high residential buildings - mostly 5 levels or less than 10 levels with not enough parking places around.
- cluckindan 2y ago
  That sounds like an arcology. I would not want to live in an arcology.
  - madaxe_again 2y ago
    My sister lives in one in KL, and describes it as an arcology - and I’ve gotta say, it’s super convenient to not need to leave the building to go grocery shopping, or for pretty much any of the day-to-day services you might need. It’s like a 5 minute city, never mind 15 minute. And no, residents are not imprisoned.
    - amyfp214 2y ago
      notably that corner of the world, especially singapore, in some ways is opposite to murica's personal independence attitude. more of a "you will own nothing and you will be happy" e.g. everything including cooking is outsourced, and all good quality. So they are happy to learn very few things except one specialized skill and outsource the rest. This sort of urban collectivism runs contrary to the american self-starter rural origins.
      - bobthepanda 2y ago
        Other than the geometry of high density living, the mall and shared facilities at the base isn’t that odd. If you drive to a strip mall to go to a gym or you go to a pool or country club run by your HOA it’s the same thing but with added driving.
Peteragain 2y ago
Thanks for the comments - I'd often thought this was a good idea but then.. So perhaps an issue is the distinction between a shopping mall and a shopping centre. Malls have "exterior" windows on the inside overlooking public spaces. Is that sufficient? And also, a place is not a slum while it is desirable, and perhaps the conversion process needs to start when a mall is still a popular destination. Sheffield's Medowhall is a place I'd love an small flat, but the rental per square meter would not allow anything residential ATM.
- ted_dunning 2y ago
  I have a personal beef with the way that Meadowhall contributed to the decline of Sheffield city center and the high streets there. The light rail sucked the transit budget away from other projects as well.

46 points by debo_ 2y ago

Housing conversions are great and all that. But we're talking 250 sq. ft. units here and not exactly in what a lot of people would consider prime locations. The affordable housing issue is mostly around what people generally consider prime locations.

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
jasonjayr 2y ago
The Providence Arcade Mall works for this conversion because it is in a prime location in Downtown Providence. There are some pretty high-powered offices near by, RI School of Design is a brisk 5-10 min walk away, Kennedy Plaza, the (for now) central hub for the state's bus system is a 2 minute walk away.
- ghaff 2y ago
  If you're good with a pied a terre in downtown Providence, this is probably an interesting option. Not sure how common that is. ADDED: That was probably unfairly snarky. But I'm not sure how many people complaining about housing affordability really have in mind very small places in peripheral cities (even fairly nice ones like Providence).

Mengkudulangsat 2y ago

Malls have central HVAC, without which the common areas get dank very quickly. I doubt those can be operated affordably with residential tenants.

binarymax 2y ago
Yeah not just the HVAC but the entire common area maintenance and pro rata property tax is a high portion of commercial rent in malls. A commercial tenant for the same space would probably pay 5x to 10x what an equivalent residential market rate would be.
- jasonjayr 2y ago
  A vacant space without a commercial tenant is paying 5 x $0, so ... might as well put the space to good use.
  - binarymax 2y ago
    Conversions are really expensive. If the property won't be sustainable with residential rent then why bother doing the conversion in the first place? Seems like a frustrating way to burn money. I'm not saying it's impossible, but people drastically underestimate the complexity and cost of converting a commercial property into a residential one. All the codes are different, and all the requirements are different.
    - Suppafly 2y ago
      Plus these old malls are often garbage buildings which is why they aren't viable as a mall anymore anyway. Better to send a few million cleaning and preparing the site and then build something that's actually viable for housing.
      - ghaff 2y ago
        At the end of the day, the buildings in a deadish mall or shopping center aren't worth much. Maybe the land is worth something but, in that case, why not start fresh with a purpose-built development, either housing or a mix of housing and retail.
        Suppafly 2y ago
        yeah that's my point
        ghaff 2y ago
        There are some older buildings in urban centers that probably make sense to repurpose without just tearing them down. but the idea that you'd take extraordinary measures to try to repurpose the Sears, JC Penny, and other mall properties around where I live is just silly rather than just starting from scratch--which doesn't seem to be going much of anywhere.

neverartful 2y ago

I wouldn't want to live a structure shared by such a large number of people (fire hazard risk).

nayuki 2y ago
Fire sprinklers are common in buildings that hold hundreds of people. Sprinklers are basically nonexistent in single-family houses. Sprinklers are extremely effective at putting out fires and preventing their spread. Fun fact: Ontario, Canada started mandating fire sprinklers in 4+ storey residential buildings started in the year 2010. Taking into account the lag in planning, design, and construction, it effectively means that any high-rise apartment building constructed after 2015 has sprinklers, and earlier ones don't.

fngjdflmdflg 2y ago

I can see how the apartments showed in the video would appeal to some types of people, although I personally would not like it. The mall is still open and has multiple stores in it that are convenient. When a mall is fully abandoned however I don't see what the appeal would be. And it's not like you can just put up some walls in a store and call it an apartment, work needs to be done to convert it anyway. I'm not sure if there is a clear benefit of retrofitting shops into apartments in a more abandoned mall. Surely there are big costs savings with this approach but there are other factors that would need to be considered.

Animats 2y ago

That worked for the arcade in Providence because it's a pre-airconditioning long, narrow building with exterior windows. But what do you do with a big box the size of a Walmart? Most areas don't allow windowless apartments. Most successful conversions are of older buildings with small floors and many windows.[1] Modern buildings with a central utility core and large floors are not good candidates for conversion. There have been some attempts at long, narrow apartments to maximize access to the outside walls, but the result is a slum. Tearing down malls to build apartments is more common than converting the big boxy spaces. [1] https://bipartisanpolicy.org/explainer/vacant-offices-housing-conversion/ https://bipartisanpolicy.org/explainer/vacant-offices-housin...

yowayb 2y ago
Funny you mentioned Wal-Mart because they've already been providing support to an effective housing solution in the form of letting RVs stay in their parking lot. I've come across many people that this type of housing seems to work quite well for. Of course, I wonder what might be the repercussions? Might require some oversight to prevent devolving into tent cities? But then again, I'm not personally aware of tent cities causing much harm (to anyone outside of the tent city)
- gedpeck 2y ago
  RVs in the parking lot of Walmart is an effective housing solution? I think not.
  - fliglr 2y ago
    Why not? It increases supply
    - singleshot_ 2y ago
      It increases the supply of blight, perhaps.
      - 2y ago

csomar 2y ago

This looks like a cheap shack house inside an old mall and it's also incredibly small. Value for money is ridiculous. The tenant also doesn't seem very happy with it and only accepting the situation because alternatives are more expensive. You don't need apartments inside a mall. You can a building on top of the mall a 20 story building and have the mall on the first floors. This way the tenants can enjoy full and real apartments while the convenience of the mall is one elevator ride away. This is not some sci-fi shit, many places in Asia are doing it. The situation in the US is going from sad to pathetic.

mcny 2y ago
> You can a building on top of the mall a 20 story building and have the mall on the first floors. This way the tenants can enjoy full and real apartments while the convenience of the mall is one elevator ride away. Absolutely. For anywhere other than the biggest cities, I suspect you don't even need twenty stories if you have enough of these buildings that are about eight to ten stories above the tall first floor for retail AND an excellent public transit infrastructure so you don't need parking lots. I think the big problem is people don't want bad public transit to replace cars and are rightly skeptical of any plans that promises good results long term after an initial period of pain where we don't have parking space but we also don't have an excellent public transit. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mixed-use_development https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mixed-use_development
Dracophoenix 2y ago
> You can a building on top of the mall a 20 story building and have the mall on the first floors. This way the tenants can enjoy full and real apartments while the convenience of the mall is one elevator ride away. Even in Asia, those residential mall complexes usually house very expensive luxury apartments.
- csomar 2y ago
  > Even in Asia, those residential mall complexes usually house very expensive luxury apartments. No. Some of them are expensive. Most of them are middle-class.

phire 2y ago

Nobody is converting suburban shopping malls into appartments. The Arcade is a special case, because it's actually a central-city mall, located right in the heart of the city, near a bunch of other apartment and office buildings. It's basically the complete opposite of your typical suburban mall, miles from anywhere, surrounded by way too many parking lots. The other examples this video briefly touches on are something completely different, and far more interesting. These aren't simple conversions of shopping mall interiors, they are projects that are tearing down large chunks of existing suburban shopping malls (and their parking lots) and attempting to re-invent them as a town centre, with added outdoor shopping, high-density housing (brand new apartment buildings), parks and office space. It's far more than just converting malls into housing. It's an attempt at a completely new approach.

ghaff 2y ago
The dead or mostly dead malls around where I live don't seem very attractive for housing or mixed residential/retail. They'd still be very car-centric, aren't in especially upscale areas, and I'm not sure how much you'd actually want to preserve. The closest I'm specifically aware of in the US in Santana Row in the South Bay but that's not really residential (maybe there's some but I'm only aware of the hotels)--and, while there are a fair number of restaurant options--you don't really have groceries or other retail that people would want on a day to day basis AFAIK.

pzo 2y ago

In malaysia a lot of residential buildings are build on top of mall altogether but those are planned ahead from the start and those residential buildings are 40 levels high. 3 levels are mostly reserved for car parking for residents, 1 floor have shared facilities like swimming pool, gym. Top level as playground room or cowork or for organising barbeque or birthday party. Lifts are super fast. Then you have malls attached to those residential buildings and those are usually connected with nearby public transport. Sadly in western world we don't build such high residential buildings - mostly 5 levels or less than 10 levels with not enough parking places around.

cluckindan 2y ago
That sounds like an arcology. I would not want to live in an arcology.
- madaxe_again 2y ago
  My sister lives in one in KL, and describes it as an arcology - and I’ve gotta say, it’s super convenient to not need to leave the building to go grocery shopping, or for pretty much any of the day-to-day services you might need. It’s like a 5 minute city, never mind 15 minute. And no, residents are not imprisoned.
  - amyfp214 2y ago
    notably that corner of the world, especially singapore, in some ways is opposite to murica's personal independence attitude. more of a "you will own nothing and you will be happy" e.g. everything including cooking is outsourced, and all good quality. So they are happy to learn very few things except one specialized skill and outsource the rest. This sort of urban collectivism runs contrary to the american self-starter rural origins.
    - bobthepanda 2y ago
      Other than the geometry of high density living, the mall and shared facilities at the base isn’t that odd. If you drive to a strip mall to go to a gym or you go to a pool or country club run by your HOA it’s the same thing but with added driving.

Peteragain 2y ago

Thanks for the comments - I'd often thought this was a good idea but then.. So perhaps an issue is the distinction between a shopping mall and a shopping centre. Malls have "exterior" windows on the inside overlooking public spaces. Is that sufficient? And also, a place is not a slum while it is desirable, and perhaps the conversion process needs to start when a mall is still a popular destination. Sheffield's Medowhall is a place I'd love an small flat, but the rental per square meter would not allow anything residential ATM.

ted_dunning 2y ago
I have a personal beef with the way that Meadowhall contributed to the decline of Sheffield city center and the high streets there. The light rail sucked the transit budget away from other projects as well.