7 ms·

I’m surprised to see them characterize the cellulose from a paper teabag as releasing “microplastics.” I get that cellulose is a polymer, but do practitioners n

by alwa 2y ago

I’m surprised to see them characterize the cellulose from a paper teabag as releasing “microplastics.” I get that cellulose is a polymer, but do practitioners not distinguish between naturally-occurring polymers and synthetic plastics in this kind of microplastic/nanoplastic research? When I boil some vegetables, do they leach microplastics into the cooking liquid, or is that something different from what this study is describing? (Edit: on looking to the study itself, it seems like this was more about developing a methodology than asserting anything in particular about the paper teabag, which they described as a random pick stripped from some green teabags from the store. Specifically I didn’t understand it to suggest that synthetic microplastics had gotten bound up in the paper matrix somehow and THAT was what was being released… so maybe it was, after all, just “model intestines absorb cellulose but not super well.” Maybe practitioners would understand the cellulose results to be used like a control here? https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0045653524026377?via=ihub https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S004565352... )

LegitShady 2y ago
there are cellulose bioplastics maybe thats what they were testing?
- alwa 2y ago
  It sounded from the methods section like a random paper teabag from the store. It wouldn’t surprise me at all if the manufacturing world had moved from paper to some kind of engineered cellulose bioplastic… but I always thought of those more in the context of rayon, and those horrible “bamboo” textiles and foams. (Versus linen made from bamboo fibers, which is lovely :) Are there other processes that work out cheaper than paper for teabag kind of applications these days?
  - LegitShady 2y ago
    I dont really think cellulose paper counts as a microplastic, though. its just cellulose fibers.
mandmandam 2y ago
> I’m surprised to see them characterize the cellulose from a paper teabag as releasing “microplastics.” I don't think they called cellulose microplastic anywhere. The issue is that commercial teabags these days often aren't using pure paper teabags: > The tea bags used for the research were made from the polymers nylon-6, polypropylene and cellulose I believe the polymers are usually coming from the glue keeping the bag together. This is a known issue going back years [0]. 0 - https://www.implasticfree.com/why-you-should-switch-to-plastic-free-tea-bags/ https://www.implasticfree.com/why-you-should-switch-to-plast...
- r00fus 2y ago
  So that's what I remember hearing this years ago: those silky looking teabags diffuse microplastics. Easy to avoid those.
  - mandmandam 2y ago
    Er, no. Those silky ones were likely worse, but a lot of the regular looking paper ones have polymer glues releasing microplastic as well.
    - TeaBrain 2y ago
      Do you have any brands in mind? In the bagged tea with cellulose tea bags that I've bought, they are typically held together by just a staple. I've found this to be the case since I occasionally empty the tea from the teabags into my percolator.
      - galleywest200 2y ago
        PG Tips is a brand that sells those pyramid-shaped teabags that I believe are held together with the glue.
        biggestdummy 2y ago
        In 2018, Unilever announced that they would soon stop using plastics in their teabags. https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/feb/28/pg-tips-announces-switch-to-plastic-free-fully-biodegradable-teabags https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/feb/28/pg-tips-... They've since reformulated the bags - can't find any statement about the new flat bags.
Suppafly 2y ago
I suspect this is something like Tazo that has the little pyramids make of a nylon type material vs the basic Lipton type tea bag that's just a paper product.
- SoftTalker 2y ago
  I also wonder about those re-usable Keurig pods that are typically a plastic frame with plastic mesh.
- nativeit 2y ago
  According to the comment just above you, that’s not the case, it’s talking about plain paper bags that are then treated. They link to an NIH page as their source.
  - nativeit 2y ago
    That said, the paper states: > To such end, three teabags of different chemical compositions were used in this study: (1) empty nylon-6 (NY6) teabags (as a model of polyamide), (2) empty polypropylene (PP) teabags, and (3) commercially available teabags containing tea, and cellulose as the polymer composition.
jdietrich 2y ago
>do practitioners not distinguish between naturally-occurring polymers and synthetic plastics in this kind of microplastic/nanoplastic research? They don't care. This is a junk paper that cites a bunch of other junk papers. It's published in the same junk journal that gave us the junk paper on black plastic kitchen utensils. I can't really say more without risking a defamation suit, but what you're looking at has nothing to do with science. https://retractionwatch.com/2024/12/18/journal-that-published-viral-study-on-black-plastic-removed-from-major-index/ https://retractionwatch.com/2024/12/18/journal-that-publishe... https://retractionwatch.com/2024/05/13/publisher-slaps-60-papers-in-chemistry-journal-with-expressions-of-concern/ https://retractionwatch.com/2024/05/13/publisher-slaps-60-pa...
- perihelions 2y ago
  Related thread, https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42494733 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42494733 ("Journal that published faulty black plastic study removed from science index (arstechnica.com)", 63 comments)
- notTooFarGone 2y ago
  Microplastics really are the new shit magnet of science papers. You get nice news headlines with no tangible issues to health are found and it's easy to just prove a bunch of microplastics in all the things. If I wanted an easy PhD I'd likely do the same due to how shitty academic hustle is in today's world...
  - Mo3 2y ago
    Not only of science papers, I recently bought new shampoo and it has a "0% microplastics" label, on its plastic bottle.. it's milking people's emotions for money, like usual
  - odyssey7 2y ago
    “No tangible issues to health” … not too long ago members of the tobacco industry were claiming about the same thing. The White House, taking microplastics seriously: https://www.whitehouse.gov/wp-content/uploads/2024/07/Mobilizing-Federal-Action-on-Plastic-Pollution-Progress-Principles-and-Priorities-July-2024.pdf https://www.whitehouse.gov/wp-content/uploads/2024/07/Mobili...
hammock 2y ago
>the cellulose from a paper teabag You have a mistaken understanding of paper teabags. They are made of paper, but during manufacturing the paper bag is sprayed with plastic to finish it (And no, I’m not talking about the silky plastic pyramid style ones. Just the cheap paper ones) Source: https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10389239/ https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10389239/
- nativeit 2y ago
  The paper states: > To such end, three teabags of different chemical compositions were used in this study: (1) empty nylon-6 (NY6) teabags (as a model of polyamide), (2) empty polypropylene (PP) teabags, and (3) commercially available teabags containing tea, and cellulose as the polymer composition. To me, that suggests there were bags included containing no PP or Nylon-6.
  - thatcat 2y ago
    it could be a siloxane coating as detailed here: https://patents.google.com/patent/EP0632163A1/en https://patents.google.com/patent/EP0632163A1/en so 3-20% of the cellulose fiber could be hydrophobic additives
- moffkalast 2y ago
  Yorkshire Tea claims "most of the bag is made from natural fibres like wood pulp and the seal is made with PLA - an industrially compostable, plant-based plastic" > In environments above 60°C, such as in hot liquids or high-heat exposure, PLA can begin to leach additives or degrade into its lactic acid monomers Why the fuck are these sodding tic tacs putting 3D printer plastic into tea bags that will be thrown into boiling water?! https://www.yorkshiretea.co.uk/our-packaging https://www.yorkshiretea.co.uk/our-packaging
  - cyberpunk 2y ago
    Challenge accepted; I will endeavour to include the phrase “sodding tic tacs” into a Christmas dinner conversation. Top marks.
odyssey7 2y ago
Thankfully they break down the results per material, so you can care about the other materials and ignore the cellulose results if you like. So, yes, the different types of material are distinguished from one another. > The tea bags used for the research were made from the polymers nylon-6, polypropylene and cellulose. The study shows that, when brewing tea, polypropylene releases approximately 1.2 billion particles per milliliter, with an average size of 136.7 nanometers; cellulose releases about 135 million particles per milliliter, with an average size of 244 nanometers; while nylon-6 releases 8.18 million particles per milliliter, with an average size of 138.4 nanometers.
- nativeit 2y ago
  That’s also the materials from each type of tea bag, not a list of materials found in a single bag: > To such end, three teabags of different chemical compositions were used in this study: (1) empty nylon-6 (NY6) teabags (as a model of polyamide), (2) empty polypropylene (PP) teabags, and (3) commercially available teabags containing tea, and cellulose as the polymer composition.
  - odyssey7 2y ago
    Yes, to the rebuttal of: "do practitioners not distinguish between naturally-occurring polymers and synthetic plastics in this kind of microplastic/nanoplastic research" The quote you provided explains clearly, they measured three different types of teabags, distinguished by the different material that each was made of. "three teabags of different chemical compositions" Edit: to indicate agreement
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
zahlman 2y ago
It doesn't seem like the study adds very much over the "See also" link from 2019 (https://phys.org/news/2019-09-plastic-teabags-microscopic-particles-tea.html https://phys.org/news/2019-09-plastic-teabags-microscopic-pa...). Anyway, it comes across like they're trying to warn about nylon or polypropylene being unexpectedly found in disposable tea bags that appear to be made of paper; but in the details you read that the microplastics are "derived from several types of commercially available tea bags" - a category which certainly includes bags very openly and obviously made of nylon (reusable, pyramid-shaped ones). There are tons of places reporting on this new study, but the idea doesn't seem to be new at all. (It also seems like common sense to me that immersing a fine plastic mesh in your food, and allowing it to reach close to 100 degrees Celsius, might be a risk for this sort of thing.) It wasn't new in 2019, either: see e.g. https://ratetea.com/topic/nylon-tea-bags/30/ https://ratetea.com/topic/nylon-tea-bags/30/ . But then, a bit of searching suggests that the disposable paper bags may indeed contain a significant amount of plastic (see e.g. https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10389239/ https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10389239/ , although the tone of the writing here seems rather fear-mongering). The reporting would be much better if it made this sort of thing clear.
forgotmypw17 2y ago
There is some confusion about the materials used in teabags. Depending on the brand, they may be pure cellulose, or they may be made with plastics and PFAs. https://www.implasticfree.com/why-you-should-switch-to-plastic-free-tea-bags/ https://www.implasticfree.com/why-you-should-switch-to-plast...

by alwa 2y ago

LegitShady 2y ago

there are cellulose bioplastics maybe thats what they were testing?

alwa 2y ago
It sounded from the methods section like a random paper teabag from the store. It wouldn’t surprise me at all if the manufacturing world had moved from paper to some kind of engineered cellulose bioplastic… but I always thought of those more in the context of rayon, and those horrible “bamboo” textiles and foams. (Versus linen made from bamboo fibers, which is lovely :) Are there other processes that work out cheaper than paper for teabag kind of applications these days?
- LegitShady 2y ago
  I dont really think cellulose paper counts as a microplastic, though. its just cellulose fibers.

mandmandam 2y ago

> I’m surprised to see them characterize the cellulose from a paper teabag as releasing “microplastics.” I don't think they called cellulose microplastic anywhere. The issue is that commercial teabags these days often aren't using pure paper teabags: > The tea bags used for the research were made from the polymers nylon-6, polypropylene and cellulose I believe the polymers are usually coming from the glue keeping the bag together. This is a known issue going back years [0]. 0 - https://www.implasticfree.com/why-you-should-switch-to-plastic-free-tea-bags/ https://www.implasticfree.com/why-you-should-switch-to-plast...

r00fus 2y ago
So that's what I remember hearing this years ago: those silky looking teabags diffuse microplastics. Easy to avoid those.
- mandmandam 2y ago
  Er, no. Those silky ones were likely worse, but a lot of the regular looking paper ones have polymer glues releasing microplastic as well.
  - TeaBrain 2y ago
    Do you have any brands in mind? In the bagged tea with cellulose tea bags that I've bought, they are typically held together by just a staple. I've found this to be the case since I occasionally empty the tea from the teabags into my percolator.
    - galleywest200 2y ago
      PG Tips is a brand that sells those pyramid-shaped teabags that I believe are held together with the glue.
      - biggestdummy 2y ago
        In 2018, Unilever announced that they would soon stop using plastics in their teabags. https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/feb/28/pg-tips-announces-switch-to-plastic-free-fully-biodegradable-teabags https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/feb/28/pg-tips-... They've since reformulated the bags - can't find any statement about the new flat bags.

Suppafly 2y ago

I suspect this is something like Tazo that has the little pyramids make of a nylon type material vs the basic Lipton type tea bag that's just a paper product.

SoftTalker 2y ago
I also wonder about those re-usable Keurig pods that are typically a plastic frame with plastic mesh.
nativeit 2y ago
According to the comment just above you, that’s not the case, it’s talking about plain paper bags that are then treated. They link to an NIH page as their source.
- nativeit 2y ago
  That said, the paper states: > To such end, three teabags of different chemical compositions were used in this study: (1) empty nylon-6 (NY6) teabags (as a model of polyamide), (2) empty polypropylene (PP) teabags, and (3) commercially available teabags containing tea, and cellulose as the polymer composition.

jdietrich 2y ago

>do practitioners not distinguish between naturally-occurring polymers and synthetic plastics in this kind of microplastic/nanoplastic research? They don't care. This is a junk paper that cites a bunch of other junk papers. It's published in the same junk journal that gave us the junk paper on black plastic kitchen utensils. I can't really say more without risking a defamation suit, but what you're looking at has nothing to do with science. https://retractionwatch.com/2024/12/18/journal-that-published-viral-study-on-black-plastic-removed-from-major-index/ https://retractionwatch.com/2024/12/18/journal-that-publishe... https://retractionwatch.com/2024/05/13/publisher-slaps-60-papers-in-chemistry-journal-with-expressions-of-concern/ https://retractionwatch.com/2024/05/13/publisher-slaps-60-pa...

perihelions 2y ago
Related thread, https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42494733 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42494733 ("Journal that published faulty black plastic study removed from science index (arstechnica.com)", 63 comments)
notTooFarGone 2y ago
Microplastics really are the new shit magnet of science papers. You get nice news headlines with no tangible issues to health are found and it's easy to just prove a bunch of microplastics in all the things. If I wanted an easy PhD I'd likely do the same due to how shitty academic hustle is in today's world...
- Mo3 2y ago
  Not only of science papers, I recently bought new shampoo and it has a "0% microplastics" label, on its plastic bottle.. it's milking people's emotions for money, like usual
- odyssey7 2y ago
  “No tangible issues to health” … not too long ago members of the tobacco industry were claiming about the same thing. The White House, taking microplastics seriously: https://www.whitehouse.gov/wp-content/uploads/2024/07/Mobilizing-Federal-Action-on-Plastic-Pollution-Progress-Principles-and-Priorities-July-2024.pdf https://www.whitehouse.gov/wp-content/uploads/2024/07/Mobili...

hammock 2y ago

>the cellulose from a paper teabag You have a mistaken understanding of paper teabags. They are made of paper, but during manufacturing the paper bag is sprayed with plastic to finish it (And no, I’m not talking about the silky plastic pyramid style ones. Just the cheap paper ones) Source: https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10389239/ https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10389239/

nativeit 2y ago
The paper states: > To such end, three teabags of different chemical compositions were used in this study: (1) empty nylon-6 (NY6) teabags (as a model of polyamide), (2) empty polypropylene (PP) teabags, and (3) commercially available teabags containing tea, and cellulose as the polymer composition. To me, that suggests there were bags included containing no PP or Nylon-6.
- thatcat 2y ago
  it could be a siloxane coating as detailed here: https://patents.google.com/patent/EP0632163A1/en https://patents.google.com/patent/EP0632163A1/en so 3-20% of the cellulose fiber could be hydrophobic additives
moffkalast 2y ago
Yorkshire Tea claims "most of the bag is made from natural fibres like wood pulp and the seal is made with PLA - an industrially compostable, plant-based plastic" > In environments above 60°C, such as in hot liquids or high-heat exposure, PLA can begin to leach additives or degrade into its lactic acid monomers Why the fuck are these sodding tic tacs putting 3D printer plastic into tea bags that will be thrown into boiling water?! https://www.yorkshiretea.co.uk/our-packaging https://www.yorkshiretea.co.uk/our-packaging
- cyberpunk 2y ago
  Challenge accepted; I will endeavour to include the phrase “sodding tic tacs” into a Christmas dinner conversation. Top marks.

odyssey7 2y ago

Thankfully they break down the results per material, so you can care about the other materials and ignore the cellulose results if you like. So, yes, the different types of material are distinguished from one another. > The tea bags used for the research were made from the polymers nylon-6, polypropylene and cellulose. The study shows that, when brewing tea, polypropylene releases approximately 1.2 billion particles per milliliter, with an average size of 136.7 nanometers; cellulose releases about 135 million particles per milliliter, with an average size of 244 nanometers; while nylon-6 releases 8.18 million particles per milliliter, with an average size of 138.4 nanometers.

nativeit 2y ago
That’s also the materials from each type of tea bag, not a list of materials found in a single bag: > To such end, three teabags of different chemical compositions were used in this study: (1) empty nylon-6 (NY6) teabags (as a model of polyamide), (2) empty polypropylene (PP) teabags, and (3) commercially available teabags containing tea, and cellulose as the polymer composition.
- odyssey7 2y ago
  Yes, to the rebuttal of: "do practitioners not distinguish between naturally-occurring polymers and synthetic plastics in this kind of microplastic/nanoplastic research" The quote you provided explains clearly, they measured three different types of teabags, distinguished by the different material that each was made of. "three teabags of different chemical compositions" Edit: to indicate agreement

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

zahlman 2y ago

It doesn't seem like the study adds very much over the "See also" link from 2019 (https://phys.org/news/2019-09-plastic-teabags-microscopic-particles-tea.html https://phys.org/news/2019-09-plastic-teabags-microscopic-pa...). Anyway, it comes across like they're trying to warn about nylon or polypropylene being unexpectedly found in disposable tea bags that appear to be made of paper; but in the details you read that the microplastics are "derived from several types of commercially available tea bags" - a category which certainly includes bags very openly and obviously made of nylon (reusable, pyramid-shaped ones). There are tons of places reporting on this new study, but the idea doesn't seem to be new at all. (It also seems like common sense to me that immersing a fine plastic mesh in your food, and allowing it to reach close to 100 degrees Celsius, might be a risk for this sort of thing.) It wasn't new in 2019, either: see e.g. https://ratetea.com/topic/nylon-tea-bags/30/ https://ratetea.com/topic/nylon-tea-bags/30/ . But then, a bit of searching suggests that the disposable paper bags may indeed contain a significant amount of plastic (see e.g. https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10389239/ https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10389239/ , although the tone of the writing here seems rather fear-mongering). The reporting would be much better if it made this sort of thing clear.

forgotmypw17 2y ago

There is some confusion about the materials used in teabags. Depending on the brand, they may be pure cellulose, or they may be made with plastics and PFAs. https://www.implasticfree.com/why-you-should-switch-to-plastic-free-tea-bags/ https://www.implasticfree.com/why-you-should-switch-to-plast...