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Google reveals the CEO who died and other United Healthcare executive's are being investigated for insider trading, enriching themselves by many millions. (And

Google reveals the CEO who died and other United Healthcare executive's are being investigated for insider trading, enriching themselves by many millions. (And conversely, others must have lost millions. ) Also being investigated for fraud.( I thought this may be possible cause for murder, but it appears not. )

tptacek 2y ago
We don't have to retcon subtle rationales onto the murder; the guy wrote a manifesto. It was bad, and dumb, as writers from both ends of the political spectrum and points between have observed.
- mandmandam 2y ago
  By your tone, I would bet that your cited "writers from both ends of the political spectrum and points between" read the fake manifesto [0]. The (more likely) real [1] one isn't as easily dismissed. 0 - https://leadstories.com/hoax-alert/2024/12/fact-check-fake-manifesto-supposedly-by-luigi-mangione-posted-on-substack-taken-down-for-impersonation.html https://leadstories.com/hoax-alert/2024/12/fact-check-fake-m... 1 - https://www.kenklippenstein.com/p/luigis-manifesto https://www.kenklippenstein.com/p/luigis-manifesto
  - tptacek 2y ago
    I'm referring to the especially dumb one you linked at [1].
    - mandmandam 2y ago
      His actions touched a nerve. If you want to try and smear the alleged manifesto, go ahead, but I don't think you'll be changing many minds. And by the way, there's no shortage of "writers from both ends of the political spectrum and points between" who broadly agree with its points. Luigi is more popular than Joe Biden lol [0]. 60% of New Yorkers would acquit him [1] (100,000 sample size). 0 - https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/suspected-unitedhealthcare-ceo-assassin-luigi-mangione-has-higher-approval-rating-than-joe-biden-in-new-poll/ar-AA1wbuQN https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/suspected-unitedheal... 1 - https://www.econotimes.com/Shocking-Poll-60-of-New-Yorkers-Say-Theyd-Acquit-Luigi-MangioneThe-Case-Is-Falling-Apart-Critics-Cry-Foul-1696986 https://www.econotimes.com/Shocking-Poll-60-of-New-Yorkers-S...
      - tptacek 2y ago
        No, you just tried to imply that the "real" manifesto was somehow difficult to dismiss. That's the one I was referring to. It's obviously easy to dismiss --- it literally dismisses itself at one point, saying that other people understand the problems better than he does. I'd be interested in what led you to think it was strong. "The poll, conducted by PoliticsVideoChannel". Heh.
        mandmandam 2y ago
        > It's obviously easy to dismiss --- it literally dismisses itself at one point, saying that other people understand the problems better than he does. That's a failure of both logic and reading comprehension on your part, I'm afraid. It's honestly odd that you'd think this to be true. It reads as if you're a little too keen to find a 'gotcha'. The alleged manifesto outlines that while there are more knowledgeable experts on the corruption and greed at play, who have been opining for decades, no one has taken action and the problems have remained. To reinterpret this as it "dismissing itself" is far from justified. > I'd be interested in what led you to think it was strong. I never said it was strong, or implied such. I said it wasn't as easy to dismiss as the proven fake manifesto, and I said that many people broadly agree with its points. As an academic essay, or as a finished draft to try and justify murder, it has serious flaws. However, I think that if it were as easily dismissed as you insist, then at least one of the mainstream news organizations would have published it.
        tptacek 2y ago
        The manifesto claims that our health care system is responsible for our lower life expectancy, which is trivially falsifiable; the causes of the gap between US life expectancy and the rest of the G8 (spoiler: cars, guns, heart disease) are well studied. In fact, when it comes to the treatment of illness, we outperform. That is his central claim. He murdered someone over it. It's luridly false.
        mandmandam 2y ago
        > The manifesto claims that our health care system is responsible for our lower life expectancy, which is trivially falsifiable No, it isn't. If you want to claim that all of those numbers are explained by heart attacks and guns, then you need to ask yourself how many of the gun deaths are due to poor mental health resources, and how many of the heart attacks could have been prevented with more equitable and affordable healthcare. And if you still believe it's so "trivially falsifiable", then why do you think most Americans (and the rest of the world, for that matter) believe otherwise? US healthcare is undeniably a global laughing stock. We are the poster child for why capitalism in healthcare is an evil and stupid idea. Our system works well for people with either a looooot of money, or premium insurance through their employment. It doesn't work so well for the hundreds of thousands forced into medical bankruptcy each year, or the diabetics dying because they can't afford insulin, or the 27% of Americans who skipped medical care because they couldn't afford it last year [0]. 27%! That's utterly indefensible. No society can long withstand such stress. It doesn't work so well for non-white infants dying in childbirth at shocking rates, or the families left destitute due to over-costed end of life care. Try telling the people who had their lives financially ruined because someone called a $4,000 ambulance for them that we outperform in healthcare. Etc, etc. > when it comes to the treatment of illness, we outperform. On a dollar per dollar basis? Nope. To all citizens with any approximation of equality? Nope. If you have a high 7 figure net worth? Sure; glad you're alright Jack - but don't expect America to believe you when you say the system works. 0 - https://usafacts.org/articles/how-many-people-skip-medical-treatment-due-to-healthcare-costs/ https://usafacts.org/articles/how-many-people-skip-medical-t...
    - archagon 2y ago
      I should note that aggressively calling something dumb over and over again does not actually make it dumb.
      - tptacek 2y ago
        It's very short, so you can just read it and see how dumb it is.
        archagon 2y ago
        I did not find it to be terribly dumb, simple though it was.
        tptacek 2y ago
        The causal factors for the life expectancy gap between the US and the G8 have in fact very little do with our health care system, and the (manifold) problems of our health care system have in fact very little to do with health insurance. In fact, if you isolate the health care system, and don't try to six-degrees-of-Kevin-Bacon every inequality and equity problem in America onto the health care system, we actually tend to outperform the G8. Don't take my word for it. The manifesto itself says that the guy doesn't understand any of this stuff. Didn't stop him from murdering something. A first, I think, in murderer manifestos!
        mandmandam 2y ago
        > The manifesto itself says that the guy doesn't understand any of this stuff. Now you're just flat lying. That's not what it said at all, and in fact I explained this to you only hours previous. Here's what the alleged manifesto said: > Obviously the problem is more complex, but I do not have space, and frankly I do not pretend to be the most qualified person to lay out the full argument. But many have illuminated the corruption and greed (e.g.: Rosenthal, Moore), decades ago and the problems simply remain. It is not an issue of awareness at this point, but clearly power games at play. This is some of the poorest debating I've seen on HN in a long while. I really don't know why you think it's okay to make shit up like this, and then repeat it long after you were patiently corrected. Who do you think you're going to convince this way? Do you have that low an opinion of the crowd here?
- asdefghyk 2y ago
  The point is the CEO (and other United HeathCare exec's) is not as squeaky clean as widely mentioned in the media
  - tptacek 2y ago
    Who cares? What possible difference does that make?

tptacek 2y ago

We don't have to retcon subtle rationales onto the murder; the guy wrote a manifesto. It was bad, and dumb, as writers from both ends of the political spectrum and points between have observed.

mandmandam 2y ago
By your tone, I would bet that your cited "writers from both ends of the political spectrum and points between" read the fake manifesto [0]. The (more likely) real [1] one isn't as easily dismissed. 0 - https://leadstories.com/hoax-alert/2024/12/fact-check-fake-manifesto-supposedly-by-luigi-mangione-posted-on-substack-taken-down-for-impersonation.html https://leadstories.com/hoax-alert/2024/12/fact-check-fake-m... 1 - https://www.kenklippenstein.com/p/luigis-manifesto https://www.kenklippenstein.com/p/luigis-manifesto
- tptacek 2y ago
  I'm referring to the especially dumb one you linked at [1].
  - mandmandam 2y ago
    His actions touched a nerve. If you want to try and smear the alleged manifesto, go ahead, but I don't think you'll be changing many minds. And by the way, there's no shortage of "writers from both ends of the political spectrum and points between" who broadly agree with its points. Luigi is more popular than Joe Biden lol [0]. 60% of New Yorkers would acquit him [1] (100,000 sample size). 0 - https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/suspected-unitedhealthcare-ceo-assassin-luigi-mangione-has-higher-approval-rating-than-joe-biden-in-new-poll/ar-AA1wbuQN https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/suspected-unitedheal... 1 - https://www.econotimes.com/Shocking-Poll-60-of-New-Yorkers-Say-Theyd-Acquit-Luigi-MangioneThe-Case-Is-Falling-Apart-Critics-Cry-Foul-1696986 https://www.econotimes.com/Shocking-Poll-60-of-New-Yorkers-S...
    - tptacek 2y ago
      No, you just tried to imply that the "real" manifesto was somehow difficult to dismiss. That's the one I was referring to. It's obviously easy to dismiss --- it literally dismisses itself at one point, saying that other people understand the problems better than he does. I'd be interested in what led you to think it was strong. "The poll, conducted by PoliticsVideoChannel". Heh.
      - mandmandam 2y ago
        > It's obviously easy to dismiss --- it literally dismisses itself at one point, saying that other people understand the problems better than he does. That's a failure of both logic and reading comprehension on your part, I'm afraid. It's honestly odd that you'd think this to be true. It reads as if you're a little too keen to find a 'gotcha'. The alleged manifesto outlines that while there are more knowledgeable experts on the corruption and greed at play, who have been opining for decades, no one has taken action and the problems have remained. To reinterpret this as it "dismissing itself" is far from justified. > I'd be interested in what led you to think it was strong. I never said it was strong, or implied such. I said it wasn't as easy to dismiss as the proven fake manifesto, and I said that many people broadly agree with its points. As an academic essay, or as a finished draft to try and justify murder, it has serious flaws. However, I think that if it were as easily dismissed as you insist, then at least one of the mainstream news organizations would have published it.
        tptacek 2y ago
        The manifesto claims that our health care system is responsible for our lower life expectancy, which is trivially falsifiable; the causes of the gap between US life expectancy and the rest of the G8 (spoiler: cars, guns, heart disease) are well studied. In fact, when it comes to the treatment of illness, we outperform. That is his central claim. He murdered someone over it. It's luridly false.
        mandmandam 2y ago
        > The manifesto claims that our health care system is responsible for our lower life expectancy, which is trivially falsifiable No, it isn't. If you want to claim that all of those numbers are explained by heart attacks and guns, then you need to ask yourself how many of the gun deaths are due to poor mental health resources, and how many of the heart attacks could have been prevented with more equitable and affordable healthcare. And if you still believe it's so "trivially falsifiable", then why do you think most Americans (and the rest of the world, for that matter) believe otherwise? US healthcare is undeniably a global laughing stock. We are the poster child for why capitalism in healthcare is an evil and stupid idea. Our system works well for people with either a looooot of money, or premium insurance through their employment. It doesn't work so well for the hundreds of thousands forced into medical bankruptcy each year, or the diabetics dying because they can't afford insulin, or the 27% of Americans who skipped medical care because they couldn't afford it last year [0]. 27%! That's utterly indefensible. No society can long withstand such stress. It doesn't work so well for non-white infants dying in childbirth at shocking rates, or the families left destitute due to over-costed end of life care. Try telling the people who had their lives financially ruined because someone called a $4,000 ambulance for them that we outperform in healthcare. Etc, etc. > when it comes to the treatment of illness, we outperform. On a dollar per dollar basis? Nope. To all citizens with any approximation of equality? Nope. If you have a high 7 figure net worth? Sure; glad you're alright Jack - but don't expect America to believe you when you say the system works. 0 - https://usafacts.org/articles/how-many-people-skip-medical-treatment-due-to-healthcare-costs/ https://usafacts.org/articles/how-many-people-skip-medical-t...
  - archagon 2y ago
    I should note that aggressively calling something dumb over and over again does not actually make it dumb.
    - tptacek 2y ago
      It's very short, so you can just read it and see how dumb it is.
      - archagon 2y ago
        I did not find it to be terribly dumb, simple though it was.
        tptacek 2y ago
        The causal factors for the life expectancy gap between the US and the G8 have in fact very little do with our health care system, and the (manifold) problems of our health care system have in fact very little to do with health insurance. In fact, if you isolate the health care system, and don't try to six-degrees-of-Kevin-Bacon every inequality and equity problem in America onto the health care system, we actually tend to outperform the G8. Don't take my word for it. The manifesto itself says that the guy doesn't understand any of this stuff. Didn't stop him from murdering something. A first, I think, in murderer manifestos!
        mandmandam 2y ago
        > The manifesto itself says that the guy doesn't understand any of this stuff. Now you're just flat lying. That's not what it said at all, and in fact I explained this to you only hours previous. Here's what the alleged manifesto said: > Obviously the problem is more complex, but I do not have space, and frankly I do not pretend to be the most qualified person to lay out the full argument. But many have illuminated the corruption and greed (e.g.: Rosenthal, Moore), decades ago and the problems simply remain. It is not an issue of awareness at this point, but clearly power games at play. This is some of the poorest debating I've seen on HN in a long while. I really don't know why you think it's okay to make shit up like this, and then repeat it long after you were patiently corrected. Who do you think you're going to convince this way? Do you have that low an opinion of the crowd here?
asdefghyk 2y ago
The point is the CEO (and other United HeathCare exec's) is not as squeaky clean as widely mentioned in the media
- tptacek 2y ago
  Who cares? What possible difference does that make?