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It's a shame that Apple's stated intent is to throw the project away after a while. Personally, I really hope it sticks around forever, though I'm not optimisti

It's a shame that Apple's stated intent is to throw the project away after a while. Personally, I really hope it sticks around forever, though I'm not optimistic.

K7PJP 2y ago
Where did Apple state that Rosetta 2 was to be deprecated?
- larusso 2y ago
  I think they assuming from the past that this will happen. When Apple moved from powerPC to x86 there was Rosetta 1. It got deprecated as well.
  - skissane 2y ago
    I think it is different this time. A lot of developers use Rosetta 2 for Linux to run x86-64 Linux Docker containers under macOS (including me). They'll be upset if Apple discontinues Rosetta 2 for Linux. By contrast, once the PPC-to-Intel transition was under way, Rosetta was only used for running old software, and as time went by that software became increasingly outdated and use of it declined. While I think Rosetta 2 for macOS usage will likely decline over time too, I think Rosetta 2 for Linux usage is going to be much more stable and Apple will likely maintain it for a lot longer. Maybe if we eventually see a gradual migration of data centres from x86-64 to ARM, Rosetta 2 for Linux usage might begin to also decline, and then Apple may actually kill it. But, if such a migration happens, it is going to take a decade or more for us to get there.
    - CodesInChaos 2y ago
      What's the advantage of running x86-64 Linux Docker containers over running ARM Linux Docker containers? Aren't most distributionss and packages available for both platforms?
      - xienze 2y ago
        The advantage is the fact that they exist. Not every Docker container is built for multiple platforms.
      - spockz 2y ago
        Some images are only available for amd64 still. Like oracle databases. Even if there is an arm64 of a recent version of the app, it may not exist for older versions that you want to test against.
      - 0x0 2y ago
        Microsoft SQL Server is only available as an x86-64 docker container binary. They actually had a native(?) arm64 docker container under the name "azure-sql-edge", which was (and still is) super useful as you can run it "natively" in an arm64 qemu linux for example, but alas that version was not long lived, as Microsoft decided to stop developing it again, which feels like a huge step backwards. https://techcommunity.microsoft.com/blog/sqlserver/azure-sql-edge-update---september-2023/3930827 https://techcommunity.microsoft.com/blog/sqlserver/azure-sql... There's probably other closed-source linux software being distributed as amd64-only binaries (rosetta 2 for linux VMs isn't limited to docker containers).
      - rickette 2y ago
        Lots and lots of Docker images are only linux/amd64 compatible. Without Rosetta 2 I wouldn't be able to do my job, especially in a team with a mix of Mac and Linux workstations and most images being build as amd64/linux only.
    - larusso 2y ago
      I just pointed out what happened in the past. I have no clue if Apple will deprecate it and what reason they put forward doing so. I personally like the fact that I can run both arm and x86 binaries. But I think judging Apple that if they don’t have a personal reason to support Linux (they also use it for their services) they will remove it. But deprecated dons’t mean it will be removed anytime soon. Apple keeps APIs and frameworks as long as they don’t interfere with something else.
      - deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
  - GeekyBear 2y ago
    The first Rosetta was based on licensed technology, used at a time when Apple was still pinching pennies. It made financial sense to stop paying the licensing fee to include it in each new version of the OS as quickly as possible. There is no financial incentive to remove the current version of Rosetta, since it was developed in-house.
    - larusso 2y ago
      Thanks didn’t know that.
      - GeekyBear 2y ago
        It was interesting tech, licensed by Silicon Graphics, Apple, IBM, and Sun. IBM ended up buying out the company that brought it to market. https://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/QuickTransit https://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/QuickTransit
wtallis 2y ago
Rosetta 2 can't go away until Apple is ready to also retire Game Porting Toolkit. At most, they might drop support for running regular x86 macOS applications while keeping it around for Linux VMs and Windows applications, but that would be pretty weird.
- duskwuff 2y ago
  In principle, the Linux Rosetta binaries should remain usable well into the future. Even if Apple discontinues support for Rosetta in their VMs, there's very little (beyond a simple, easily removed runtime check) preventing them from being used standalone.
  - saagarjha 2y ago
    The kernel could drop support.
  - vbezhenar 2y ago
    AFAIK Linux Rosetta does not work standalone but uses some channels to exchange x86 and arm binary code between Linux guest and macOS host. Actual translation happens in the macOS.
    - duskwuff 2y ago
      You'd think so, but no. With a patch to remove the runtime check, Rosetta works on Asahi Linux, with no macOS kernel present at all.
- nubinetwork 2y ago
  > game porting toolkit I don't understand why Apple even bothers these days, I wouldn't be surprised if Apple's gaming market is a quarter of what the Linux gaming market currently is (thanks to Valve and their work on proton and by extension wine)...
  - drexlspivey 2y ago
    Because people want to use their fancy new hardware to play games? Linux market share wouldnt be increasing so fast if Valve didn’t do the work so why shouldn’t Apple do the same?

It's a shame that Apple's stated intent is to throw the project away after a while. Personally, I really hope it sticks around forever, though I'm not optimistic.

K7PJP 2y ago

Where did Apple state that Rosetta 2 was to be deprecated?

larusso 2y ago
I think they assuming from the past that this will happen. When Apple moved from powerPC to x86 there was Rosetta 1. It got deprecated as well.
- skissane 2y ago
  I think it is different this time. A lot of developers use Rosetta 2 for Linux to run x86-64 Linux Docker containers under macOS (including me). They'll be upset if Apple discontinues Rosetta 2 for Linux. By contrast, once the PPC-to-Intel transition was under way, Rosetta was only used for running old software, and as time went by that software became increasingly outdated and use of it declined. While I think Rosetta 2 for macOS usage will likely decline over time too, I think Rosetta 2 for Linux usage is going to be much more stable and Apple will likely maintain it for a lot longer. Maybe if we eventually see a gradual migration of data centres from x86-64 to ARM, Rosetta 2 for Linux usage might begin to also decline, and then Apple may actually kill it. But, if such a migration happens, it is going to take a decade or more for us to get there.
  - CodesInChaos 2y ago
    What's the advantage of running x86-64 Linux Docker containers over running ARM Linux Docker containers? Aren't most distributionss and packages available for both platforms?
    - xienze 2y ago
      The advantage is the fact that they exist. Not every Docker container is built for multiple platforms.
    - spockz 2y ago
      Some images are only available for amd64 still. Like oracle databases. Even if there is an arm64 of a recent version of the app, it may not exist for older versions that you want to test against.
    - 0x0 2y ago
      Microsoft SQL Server is only available as an x86-64 docker container binary. They actually had a native(?) arm64 docker container under the name "azure-sql-edge", which was (and still is) super useful as you can run it "natively" in an arm64 qemu linux for example, but alas that version was not long lived, as Microsoft decided to stop developing it again, which feels like a huge step backwards. https://techcommunity.microsoft.com/blog/sqlserver/azure-sql-edge-update---september-2023/3930827 https://techcommunity.microsoft.com/blog/sqlserver/azure-sql... There's probably other closed-source linux software being distributed as amd64-only binaries (rosetta 2 for linux VMs isn't limited to docker containers).
    - rickette 2y ago
      Lots and lots of Docker images are only linux/amd64 compatible. Without Rosetta 2 I wouldn't be able to do my job, especially in a team with a mix of Mac and Linux workstations and most images being build as amd64/linux only.
  - larusso 2y ago
    I just pointed out what happened in the past. I have no clue if Apple will deprecate it and what reason they put forward doing so. I personally like the fact that I can run both arm and x86 binaries. But I think judging Apple that if they don’t have a personal reason to support Linux (they also use it for their services) they will remove it. But deprecated dons’t mean it will be removed anytime soon. Apple keeps APIs and frameworks as long as they don’t interfere with something else.
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
- GeekyBear 2y ago
  The first Rosetta was based on licensed technology, used at a time when Apple was still pinching pennies. It made financial sense to stop paying the licensing fee to include it in each new version of the OS as quickly as possible. There is no financial incentive to remove the current version of Rosetta, since it was developed in-house.
  - larusso 2y ago
    Thanks didn’t know that.
    - GeekyBear 2y ago
      It was interesting tech, licensed by Silicon Graphics, Apple, IBM, and Sun. IBM ended up buying out the company that brought it to market. https://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/QuickTransit https://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/QuickTransit

wtallis 2y ago

Rosetta 2 can't go away until Apple is ready to also retire Game Porting Toolkit. At most, they might drop support for running regular x86 macOS applications while keeping it around for Linux VMs and Windows applications, but that would be pretty weird.

duskwuff 2y ago
In principle, the Linux Rosetta binaries should remain usable well into the future. Even if Apple discontinues support for Rosetta in their VMs, there's very little (beyond a simple, easily removed runtime check) preventing them from being used standalone.
- saagarjha 2y ago
  The kernel could drop support.
- vbezhenar 2y ago
  AFAIK Linux Rosetta does not work standalone but uses some channels to exchange x86 and arm binary code between Linux guest and macOS host. Actual translation happens in the macOS.
  - duskwuff 2y ago
    You'd think so, but no. With a patch to remove the runtime check, Rosetta works on Asahi Linux, with no macOS kernel present at all.
nubinetwork 2y ago
> game porting toolkit I don't understand why Apple even bothers these days, I wouldn't be surprised if Apple's gaming market is a quarter of what the Linux gaming market currently is (thanks to Valve and their work on proton and by extension wine)...
- drexlspivey 2y ago
  Because people want to use their fancy new hardware to play games? Linux market share wouldnt be increasing so fast if Valve didn’t do the work so why shouldn’t Apple do the same?