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Ask HN: Is StackOverflow being ruined by its mods?

53 points by genwin 14y ago

See http://i.imgur.com/cGtm5.png. I'm not the question's author; I recently searched for this question, specifically pros/cons. Seems nowadays that about 5% of the questions on SO I look up and are perfectly legitimate to me are found to be locked, with a warning to others to knock it off. This is up from ~0% when I started using the site. Every forum I've loved eventually gets lock-happy mods. What does HN think? Am I the unreasonable one? I don't see how this question is unworthy according to the FAQ that SO refers to.

sedev 14y ago
I call Betteridge's Law on this. [ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betteridge%27s_Law_of_Headlines http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betteridge%27s_Law_of_Headlines ] Stack Overflow has a fairly specific rubric for judging questions, and a central part of it is the requirement that they have a single verifiably correct answer. The example question does not, and it runs afoul of the guidelines in multiple other ways. The example question is something for a conventional discussion board or mailing list - it's not a good Stack Overflow question.
- genwin 14y ago
  In my experience there's rarely a single verifiable correct answer for a programming question that one can't easily find the answer to without asking (outside of SO). Also, whereas you're like the fourth person here to say the questions must have a single answer, that requirement is not called out in the SO guidelines at http://stackoverflow.com/faq http://stackoverflow.com/faq. The closest I see there is "You should only ask practical, answerable questions". A question asking for pros/cons of storing images in a database (vs. links to files) meets that criterion in my book.
  - Spooky23 14y ago
    If you really care enough about this to understand the background, check out the old Stackoverflow podcasts: https://stackoverflow.fogbugz.com/?W4 https://stackoverflow.fogbugz.com/?W4 (They have decent transcripts there) Jeff & Joel talk about the concept of what makes a good question a few times -- the way they got to there is interesting and worth listening too. Actually, the whole series of podcasts is an interesting view into the thoughts of founders starting a company.
LocalPCGuy 14y ago
To the vast majority of the people using StackOverflow, it is a site for getting information about programming. The mods and superusers may know that it is a site for getting specific 1-to-1 answers to questions, but I'll guarantee that the average user browsing the site does not know that. You have to click to the FAQs to find that out, and many people will not do that. Even if you go to the About page, you see this: "Stack Overflow is a programming Q & A site that’s free. Free to ask questions, free to answer questions..." No mention of the types of questions that are acceptable. The above plus SO's popularity (and prominence in search engine results) are the very reasons I find the moderation a bit over the top. IMO, it should be up to the community, not a handful of mods to decide which questions are valuable and appropriate. Some questions, while they don't have a specific answer, are extremely valuable to gather opinions, particularly for those who don't have as much experience in a given subject. So yes, I find the moderation disturbing and over-zealous, but will continue to put up with it since it is the best resource for finding quick answers to questions.
- icebraining 14y ago
  The mods are elected by the community, though.
- lumberjack 14y ago
  It's mentioned the first time you post a question. It's also mentioned every time a subjective question is locked by a moderator. Heck, they even have some sort of real time NLP that detects and warns you if you try using a subjective title.
Flimm 14y ago
I, for one, am happy with StackOverflow's moderation.
damian2000 14y ago
I mainly get upset by popular questions that get completely deleted. Someone put up an unofficial deleted question archive here though which is a big help: http://stackoverflow.hewgill.com/ http://stackoverflow.hewgill.com/
facorreia 14y ago
For conceptual questions like these, StackExchange has http://programmers.stackexchange.com http://programmers.stackexchange.com
- genwin 14y ago
  Thanks. Looking at both their FAQs, I see clear overlap in what's on-topic. The question in the OP seems on-topic for either site, but better for programmers.stackexchange.com.
  - facorreia 14y ago
    Indeed, the FAQs are not very clear. I nowadays go to programmers for conceptual questions, e.g. about architecture. But there's overlap, and I've been referred to SO from a "programmers" question before. IMHO it would be less confusing to just merge the two and let the community vote on the answers.
taylodl 14y ago
Yes it is. That's the simple answer to your question. The SO community has had a different "feel" lately, and I don't like it and I think the mods are something to do with it. That's a subjective statement of course. You might love it. YMMV.
lnanek2 14y ago
Often my favorite questions get killed, like the best ways to make money on Android. I'm very interested in which ads to run, in-app payments, etc.. The mod wanted it moved to some bullshit spin off site with no traffic. ;/ The sort of cut and dry questions they do allow on the site are often just the sort of thing you can find in the documentation anyway. Not very useful. Not to mention that stupid score system encouraging people to post bullshit crappy answers even when they aren't sure.
- icebraining 14y ago
  They have no traffic because everyone wants to shove everything onto SO. And how does the score system encourage that? You often see people with negative score for wrong answers, how is that encouraging?
Shog9 14y ago
You might like some data. See: http://stackoverflow.com/annotated-posts?tab=locked&filter=all http://stackoverflow.com/annotated-posts?tab=locked&filt... 1900 locked questions, out of which just over 1700 are locked because they were merged into duplicates, or migrated to other Stack Exchange sites. < 200 locked questions out of 3.3 million doesn't seem so bad.
- genwin 14y ago
  That's great info. If accurate I must be unlucky to hit so many locked questions. I just scrolled through all 38 pages but didn't see the question I referred to in the OP.
  - waiwai933 14y ago
    It's on page 17, or if you hit the "noticed" tab, it's there on the very first page.
    - genwin 14y ago
      Okay, I see it. Maybe the extent of this issue is my imagination then.
  - Shog9 14y ago
    > If accurate I must be unlucky to hit so many locked questions. Well, there's another possibility... A lot of those 200 locked posts were created when Stack Overflow was still very young, and are quite popular - they're locked because they turned into discussions or polls and are pretty much played out when it comes to getting anything answered, but keeping them around preserves whatever value made them popular. It's hardly surprising that you might stumble onto a few of the more popular posts regularly - there are a lot of links out there to some of them. It's pretty safe to say that something like this - http://stackoverflow.com/q/686216/ http://stackoverflow.com/q/686216/ - doesn't need more answers, and doesn't need to be repeated. But it's there, locked, in the archive for those who want to refer back to it.
j45 14y ago
I noticed the same and I'm not sure if there's a commentary as to why this trend has continued to increase. Programming isn't a syntax only problem and has many steps before, and after it that are relevant in software engineering. Maybe the mods are taking too much of a narrow programming syntax only approach. To me, that may exacerbate the issues of poor software because people are only searching for a means to the ends instead of understanding why to do things a certain way.
- genwin 14y ago
  > Maybe the mods are taking too much of a narrow programming syntax only approach. With the 400+ vote count for that question, and 50+ people taking the time to reply, I say yes indeed they are. It is definitely a programming question in my book, one whose answers could save me & others a lot of work/time.
  - j45 14y ago
    Looking back at my own SO account (5000 karma earned well over a year or two ago) which I've let idle, I noticed questions that have been closed as off-topic continue to earn karma -- indicating the mods are off on the soul of the place :P
foxhop 14y ago
I left stack overflow about a year ago when they banned my account for a week for spamming. I posted a similar answer to a few similar question (like 3 honest) and they banned me. I was so outraged I quit the site completely. That being said I thought about building a site to compete, but stackoverflow basically owns the market. I have no way of collecting users like they do.
- genwin 14y ago
  If they keep it up you'll have a ready & sizable market.
- CamperBob2 14y ago
  Stackoverflow took their market directly out of the hands of expertsexchange. They're a lot better than expertsexchange in every respect I can think of offhand, but they do have weaknesses, and I agree with the submitter that one of those is the moderation culture. I'm surprised more users aren't bothered by it. The Internet is not going to run out of space. Just as with Wikipedia, "deletionism" is inevitably an attempt to fix some other problem that could better be addressed some other way. If there's a problem with duplication of questions, that's because the UI doesn't do enough to make the older questions easier to find. (Hint: let users vote on tags, and give karma to users who surf through the suite adding good tags to existing questions.) Marginally-offtopic questions are especially harmless; if there's a problem with those, let the users police the site by downvoting. If that isn't enough, again, it's indicative of some other problem, such as the lack of some sort of gateway between different Stack Exchange sites. Ultimately, the mere fact that a site like stackoverflow needs third-party moderation means there is room for improvement at the design level. It may seem that stackoverflow is the craigslist of Q&A sites, but I don't think so. It will be easier to dislodge than Facebook, I think.
  - recursive 14y ago
    The internet running out of space is a red herring. The concern is a dilution of focus of Stack Overflow.
metoosorta 14y ago
Well, its mods sure, and all the rest of its users. But no, AFAICS it's a programming technique memoizer. The important questions have mostly been answered. There will be new important questions, and they will be asked and answered. But between now and then it will mostly be black noise. The color illiteracy and aspiration. Asking how to reverse a linked list?
phwd 14y ago
This is an old topic that was discussed in many different questions on meta.stackoverflow.com. All questions such as these have been given a special archive status where the question is locked, voting is removed and they are popped off the question list. That lock-happy mod is the one of many fighting to keep these questions somewhere for people like you who push these silly conspiracy theories. Stop it. It's annoying.
- genwin 14y ago
  This topic isn't about the age of the SO question. It's about whether the SO mods calling such questions invalid and locking them is ruining SO. The SO mod says it's locked because it's not a good, on-topic question. I don't see how the mod fights to keep the question somewhere, by locking it and calling it an off-topic question.
  - phwd 14y ago
    1. It's not a valid question for Stack Overflow under the current scope. The question was made in 2008. Of course it's a valid question, "Is the sky blue?" is a valid question as well. Doesn't mean it's within scope for Stack Overflow (see more below) 2. The mod took action but all mods took chances putting historical locks on question. There were many questions to clean up. So the mod didn't say squat, it was action by the mod which displayed a message by the system. Get it right. 3. Placing a question with a historical lock instead of closing and deleting is fighting to keep it in the system as much that is hard for you to believe seeing your extreme bias to mods of which you don't really what they do and why goes in the background. You really need to understand how this works instead of these claims. Mods see them, Stack Overflow users see them and they know it's false. So straight to it, _Why is it not a valid Stack Overflow question?_ Because it's not _definitively_ answerable. Keyword: definitively. That's all there is to it. A 1-to-1 relationship with a question and acceptable (to the author) answer. Yes it's a programming question, it's a great question, it's an interesting question, it's a popular question _but_ there is no way to make an answer for it that can be acceptable without clumping it into one answer for the author. Everyone can have their opinion for the pros/cons. Stack Overflow is for definite Qs&As not discussions. Once again if this wasn't realized this question and those like it aren't going anywhere. It's archived. Please re-read the notice and stop calling out mods, they do a lot (and by a lot, I mean enough that they should be paid for doing it) of moderation work for free. They don't need unfounded claims. See more at http://meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/126420/what-to-do-with-the-question-storing-images-in-db-yea-or-nay http://meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/126420/what-to-do-wi... and http://meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/126587/what-is-a-historical-lock-and-what-is-it-used-for http://meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/126587/what-is-a-his...
Spooky23 14y ago
I think they made the right call on this example -- the whole point of SO is to get specific answers to specific questions. This question is vague and without the context that a reasonable person would need to give a specific answer. There are plenty of examples of good questions being closed because they are perceived as generating too much discussion (esp. on the "programmers" se site). IMO, you've given us an example of SO moderation working.
- genwin 14y ago
  Please elaborate. If I want to know the pros/cons of storing images in a database, vs. (say) storing only the links to images in the database, what more specific question should I look for? How is that question too general or vague? Apparently at least 400 people thought it was reasonable, than thought it was unreasonable. 50+ people thought it was reasonable enough to respond to.
  - recursive 14y ago
    It doesn't have a specific verifiable answer. It's an invitation to discussion.
    - genwin 14y ago
      That seems to be the consensus here. I disagree with it. A clear invitation to discussion would be "What would you do?" not "What are the pros/cons?". There are plenty of valuable programming questions I can think of that can possibly devolve to some level of discussion. Banning all such questions greatly degrades the site and makes me not want to ask any questions there. If I ask "What is the function parameter in this particular language that I use to do this particular thing?" there could still be differing opinions and so the question could be locked.
  - icebraining 14y ago
    Here: http://programmers.stackexchange.com/questions/105191/what-are-the-best-tips-for-storing-images-in-a-database http://programmers.stackexchange.com/questions/105191/what-a...
freditup 14y ago
Moderating any online community is extremely difficult. Rules are generally guidelines and not always set in stone. So, this leaves things up to the discretion of moderators. It can be quite difficult to determine if something is or is not within rules. Was this locking a mistake? Probably, but one question locked means nothing. Moderators always have to watch out for 'rules creep' where the rules are stretched just a little bit over and over again until they are virtually non-existent. In the SO case, can the moderators be a bit strict sometimes? Sure, in my opinion. But I don't think this is indicative of any broad problem on SO.
- genwin 14y ago
  Agreed, except I think it's probably indicative of a broad problem on SO (I'm seeing it too much, and I've seen other forums ruined by it). I think what happens is, a mod becomes overly sensitive to controversy (difference of opinion in the answers). Having only one way to end the controversy, they incorrectly declare the question to be off-topic.
  - mikescar 14y ago
    This is not an example of a controversial issue. The consensus for years has been to store a path in the DB to a file resource, and if you store images in the DB you should have a really compelling, edge-case reason to do so.
michaelt 14y ago
If you enjoyed this question about "Storing Images in DB - Yea or Nay?" posted on Nov 28 '08 at http://stackoverflow.com/questions/3748/storing-images-in-db-yea-or-nay http://stackoverflow.com/questions/3748/storing-images-in-db... here are some other questions you might enjoy: Storing images on a database - Jul 1 '09 - http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1071636/storing-images-on-a-database http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1071636/storing-images-on... Save image in database? - Apr 30 '09 - http://stackoverflow.com/questions/805519/save-image-in-database http://stackoverflow.com/questions/805519/save-image-in-data... store image in database or in a system file? - Apr 19 '09 - http://stackoverflow.com/questions/766048/store-image-in-database-or-in-a-system-file http://stackoverflow.com/questions/766048/store-image-in-dat... Where should I store photos? File system or the database? - Oct 9 '09 - http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1546485/where-should-i-store-photos-file-system-or-the-database http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1546485/where-should-i-st... To Do or Not to Do: Store Images in a Database - May 2 '09 - http://stackoverflow.com/questions/815626/to-do-or-not-to-do-store-images-in-a-database http://stackoverflow.com/questions/815626/to-do-or-not-to-do... Store images in database or on file system - Dec 28 '10 - http://stackoverflow.com/questions/4550197/store-images-in-database-or-on-file-system http://stackoverflow.com/questions/4550197/store-images-in-d... Store pictures as files or in the database for a web app? - Feb 18 '09 - http://stackoverflow.com/questions/561447/store-pictures-as-files-or-in-the-database-for-a-web-app http://stackoverflow.com/questions/561447/store-pictures-as-... Storing a small number of images: blob or fs? - Nov 28 '08 - http://stackoverflow.com/questions/325126/storing-a-small-number-of-images-blob-or-fs http://stackoverflow.com/questions/325126/storing-a-small-nu... How to store images in your filesystem - Oct 7 '09 - http://stackoverflow.com/questions/191845/how-to-store-images-in-your-filesystem http://stackoverflow.com/questions/191845/how-to-store-image... User images - database vs. filesystem storage - Feb 25 '09 - http://stackoverflow.com/questions/585224/user-images-database-vs-filesystem-storage http://stackoverflow.com/questions/585224/user-images-databa... Should I store my images in the database or folders? - Apr 3 '09 - http://stackoverflow.com/questions/713243/should-i-store-my-images-in-the-database-or-folders http://stackoverflow.com/questions/713243/should-i-store-my-... Would you store binary data in database or in file system? - Mar 19 '09 - http://stackoverflow.com/questions/662488/would-you-store-binary-data-in-database-or-in-file-system http://stackoverflow.com/questions/662488/would-you-store-bi... storing uploaded photos and documents - filesystem vs database blob - Jul 9 '09 - http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1105429/storing-uploaded-photos-and-documents-filesystem-vs-database-blob http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1105429/storing-uploaded-... I came in here prepared to write an impassioned criticism of StackOverflow's aggressive moderation, but frankly you've made me understand exactly why they do it.
dbecker 14y ago
StackOverflow seems to think that these types of questions cause the community to sink to a lower level of discourse. I'd be inclined to disagree, except that the quality of responses their remains the highest I've seen on the internet. So, they appear to know what they are doing. Quora is happy to host this type of question. Quora responses aren't usually as well-informed as SO responses... but I don't find that a compelling argument for SO to allow these questions.
- genwin 14y ago
  Thanks. To me it's simply a matter of whether the question is on-topic for programming. If so, don't lock it for being off-topic. It seems so simple, especially when the question gets 400+ net votes and 50+ responses. They should let their users decide, with their votes, whether a question is off-topic. SO is good, but it could be much better without so many locked on-topic questions. I don't want to ask a question there, even if it's clearly not a duplicate, with lock-happy mods there. I don't like having my time wasted.
  - dbecker 14y ago
    I could be wrong, but I don't think it was closed for off-topic (non-programming). I would guess it was locked for "not having an answer." They say you should be soliciting answers rather than opinions... and, for better or for worse, that is probably why this was locked.
    - genwin 14y ago
      Clearly for worse, considering that the lock reason is (in boldface): "it is not considered a good, on-topic question for this site". A question asking for pros/cons of storing images in a database (vs. links to files) is not too subjective in my book. It's a typical programmer question.
      - MattBelanger 14y ago
        The goal of SO is to have questions with ONE correct answer, and to have that answer there. Any question - such as this one - where the answer is "it depends" better be a work of art, or have an answer that explores all the considerations in exquisite detail, or it's going to get closed. Because there's no "one right answer" to this question. It's "on topic", but not a good question.
lispm 14y ago
That's a extremely vague question which can't simply be answered on a Q&A site. There are lots of other places where such questions can be discussed. Stackoverflow is not the place to discuss all kinds of philosophical questions. If you have a specific question, best with source code, then go ahead. But please don't make stackoverflow a copy of Hackernews, Reddit, comp.db.advocacy or similar. I like Stackoverflow most when it can give real direct support for a practical problem.
maximveksler 14y ago
2 of my favorite questions are locked: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/194812/list-of-freely-available-programming-books http://stackoverflow.com/questions/194812/list-of-freely-ava... http://serverfault.com/questions/68883/linux-command-line-best-practices-and-tips http://serverfault.com/questions/68883/linux-command-line-be... Recently I've stumbled on question which I would be thrilled to continue the discussion on them had they not being set to "Locked". So yes, I really think SO is killing a healthy discussion from that perspective. off-topic: In Hebrew there is a children song which in loose translation means: "It's not so pleasant to see a closed kindergarten"[1]. I guess this feeling applies to stack overflow discussions as well. It's not that fun to find an interesting question being locked. [1] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DnRCI8aLt_Q http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DnRCI8aLt_Q