4 ms·

The name RVA23 might give you a hint around which time the extensions required for high performance implementations to be viable were rougly standardized. The

The name RVA23 might give you a hint around which time the extensions required for high performance implementations to be viable were rougly standardized. The absolutely essential bitmanip and vector extensions were just ratified at the end of 2021 and the also quite important vector crypto just in 2023.

fidotron 2y ago
So it took 10 years to ratify absolutely essential extensions? Somehow I suspect in 10 years there will be a new set of extensions promising to solve all your woes. Seriously, the way to do this is for someone to just go off and do what it takes to build a good CPU and for the ISA it uses to become the standard. Trying to do this the other way around is asking for trouble, unless sitting in committees for twenty years is actually the whole idea.
- snvzz 2y ago
  10 years from where? The base specifications in RISC-V were only ratified in 2019.
  - fidotron 2y ago
    The first RISC-V chip was taped out in 2011. Source: https://riscv.org/about/#history https://riscv.org/about/#history
    - snvzz 2y ago
      And the RISC paper[0] was published in 1980. Both are milestones that paved the way to RISC-V's base spec ratification in 2019. Incidentally, the Earth is estimated to be 4.54 billion years old. 0. https://dl.acm.org/doi/10.1145/641914.641917 https://dl.acm.org/doi/10.1145/641914.641917
      - fidotron 2y ago
        So the ratification of a spec that will enable high performance implementation would be another 4.54 billion years after 2019? It's actually worse than that, because until it's done there's no guarantee it will ever get there.
        snvzz 2y ago
        Everything needed for high performance was ratified in 2021, just two years after the base spec. That's RVA22 and Vector 1.0. Low-end hardware implementing the spec already exists (Milk-V Jupiter). High end implementations (e.g. Ventana Veyron V2, designed for servers) will be deployed in 2025.
        fidotron 2y ago
        > Everything needed for high performance was ratified in 2021 Assuming you are right, getting on for four years after even this we would have a high performance implementation of it to look at which proves that it really is everything needed . . . Except we don't. Until we do all you have is a dream.
        snvzz 2y ago
        High performance IP was announced, by multiple vendors, as available for licensing, not long (days, weeks) after these ratifications. Typically (and quite consistently) there are 3 years from that point to products you can buy cheaply sitting on shelves. Thus, expect some fun in 2025.
        fidotron 2y ago
        > High performance IP was announced, To re-iterate: you have no basis for saying it is high performance because it has not been shown to be so. When a track record has been established _then_ claims of this kind can be made, but not before. I have worked with chip makers at both ends (I was doing games which they used for testing, but they also tried to get our input for what their next designs should do) and honestly learned that these people are absolute dreamers. This was not helped by the nearly constant regularity with which we found performance destroying design flaws. Some prototypes were aborted as a result (dramatic overheating is quite a problem) but most products launched to go nowhere since they were now unspectacular. The dreaming is necessary to enable them to get up and try again, but it means you should not believe a word they say until it works.
- panick21_ 2y ago
  > So it took 10 years to ratify absolutely essential extensions? Essential for what? RISC-V was not just created for high performance of application cores. The first couple years RISC-V was mostly for university research work. Turning it into a fully capable alternative only started later and yes, that takes a number of years. > Somehow I suspect in 10 years there will be a new set of extensions promising to solve all your woes. Its about delivering the same as Intel/ARM and they have that now. Yes, in 10 years more extentions will exist, this is true for RISC-V and ARM and x86. > Seriously, the way to do this is for someone to just go off and do what it takes to build a good CPU and for the ISA No it doesn't happen that way because the company wouldn't do that wouldn't open source their ISA design. Or at least not historically. So a different path was taken to create and open standard and it worked out pretty well, even if it doesn't do what your imagination wants.

fidotron 2y ago

So it took 10 years to ratify absolutely essential extensions? Somehow I suspect in 10 years there will be a new set of extensions promising to solve all your woes. Seriously, the way to do this is for someone to just go off and do what it takes to build a good CPU and for the ISA it uses to become the standard. Trying to do this the other way around is asking for trouble, unless sitting in committees for twenty years is actually the whole idea.

snvzz 2y ago
10 years from where? The base specifications in RISC-V were only ratified in 2019.
- fidotron 2y ago
  The first RISC-V chip was taped out in 2011. Source: https://riscv.org/about/#history https://riscv.org/about/#history
  - snvzz 2y ago
    And the RISC paper[0] was published in 1980. Both are milestones that paved the way to RISC-V's base spec ratification in 2019. Incidentally, the Earth is estimated to be 4.54 billion years old. 0. https://dl.acm.org/doi/10.1145/641914.641917 https://dl.acm.org/doi/10.1145/641914.641917
    - fidotron 2y ago
      So the ratification of a spec that will enable high performance implementation would be another 4.54 billion years after 2019? It's actually worse than that, because until it's done there's no guarantee it will ever get there.
      - snvzz 2y ago
        Everything needed for high performance was ratified in 2021, just two years after the base spec. That's RVA22 and Vector 1.0. Low-end hardware implementing the spec already exists (Milk-V Jupiter). High end implementations (e.g. Ventana Veyron V2, designed for servers) will be deployed in 2025.
        fidotron 2y ago
        > Everything needed for high performance was ratified in 2021 Assuming you are right, getting on for four years after even this we would have a high performance implementation of it to look at which proves that it really is everything needed . . . Except we don't. Until we do all you have is a dream.
        snvzz 2y ago
        High performance IP was announced, by multiple vendors, as available for licensing, not long (days, weeks) after these ratifications. Typically (and quite consistently) there are 3 years from that point to products you can buy cheaply sitting on shelves. Thus, expect some fun in 2025.
        fidotron 2y ago
        > High performance IP was announced, To re-iterate: you have no basis for saying it is high performance because it has not been shown to be so. When a track record has been established _then_ claims of this kind can be made, but not before. I have worked with chip makers at both ends (I was doing games which they used for testing, but they also tried to get our input for what their next designs should do) and honestly learned that these people are absolute dreamers. This was not helped by the nearly constant regularity with which we found performance destroying design flaws. Some prototypes were aborted as a result (dramatic overheating is quite a problem) but most products launched to go nowhere since they were now unspectacular. The dreaming is necessary to enable them to get up and try again, but it means you should not believe a word they say until it works.
panick21_ 2y ago
> So it took 10 years to ratify absolutely essential extensions? Essential for what? RISC-V was not just created for high performance of application cores. The first couple years RISC-V was mostly for university research work. Turning it into a fully capable alternative only started later and yes, that takes a number of years. > Somehow I suspect in 10 years there will be a new set of extensions promising to solve all your woes. Its about delivering the same as Intel/ARM and they have that now. Yes, in 10 years more extentions will exist, this is true for RISC-V and ARM and x86. > Seriously, the way to do this is for someone to just go off and do what it takes to build a good CPU and for the ISA No it doesn't happen that way because the company wouldn't do that wouldn't open source their ISA design. Or at least not historically. So a different path was taken to create and open standard and it worked out pretty well, even if it doesn't do what your imagination wants.