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There should be no difference with usual botnet owner/ransomware gangs and such companies. Management should go to prison for good 20-30 years for that and bein

There should be no difference with usual botnet owner/ransomware gangs and such companies. Management should go to prison for good 20-30 years for that and being extradited worldwide. Considering that ransomware gangs are probably less harmful to the society than guys who hack journalists and politicians, putting their lifes at literal risks, not just their pockets. There should be no "legal" hacking of someone's devices apart from extraction of data from already convicted people in public court with the right to defend themselves

bawolff 2y ago
Its not like this is that different than traditional "weapons" (i hate the "cyberweapons" analogy, but if the shoe fits). Sell guns to governments, even unsavoury ones, it is very rare anything will happen to you except in pretty extreme cases. Sell guns to street gangs, well that is a different story. Like i don't think this situation is different because it is "hacking".
- Neonlicht 2y ago
  All the cartels in Mexico buy their guns from America and nobody is going to jail over it.
  - lupusreal 2y ago
    People do in fact get sent to prison for that, straw purchases are a federal felony. Not all of them actually get caught, which is true of any crime.
    - oaththrowaway 2y ago
      Except when the ATF does it, no big deal
      - buo 2y ago
        More information about this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATF_gunwalking_scandal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATF_gunwalking_scandal
      - lupusreal 2y ago
        Kind of like the CIA importing heroin and cocaine. The laws cover this scenario but we have a problem with especially poor enforcement when the crimes are committed by parts of the government.
- onedognight 2y ago
  The NSO created/ran cloud instances for each client country and reviewed and approved every target. The didn’t sell weapons like in your analogy. They were effectively assassins for hire. The problem with selling exploits is you want to maintain “ownership” of the exploit details, lest your customer just take the exploit and sell/use it without paying more or use it to attack you or your friends. This means you end up with veto power. I.e. culpability.
- monkeyfun 2y ago
  And meanwhile, if the government sells guns to cartels... no big deal. Rarely throw a fall guy under the bus. Or often not even that. Trying to remember the quote I last heard, something to the tune of "we don't want to punish, we want to educate", which was about "educating" LEOs and entire police departments they shouldn't be selling fun switch guns illegally to gangs and private buyers. (And do I even have to mention "fast and furious?" Hah! Feds get it the easiest.)
tehwebguy 2y ago
Certainly the ones that hack journalists should go to prison.
- lifestyleguru 2y ago
  Why should journalist badge provide some kind of protection shield? [1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pablo_Gonz%C3%A1lez_Yag%C3%BCe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pablo_Gonz%C3%A1lez_Yag%C3%BCe
  - talldayo 2y ago
    In Israel's opinion? It shouldn't: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_journalists_killed_in_the_Israel%E2%80%93Hamas_war https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_journalists_killed_in_... Israeli forces killed 38x more journalists than Hamas did on October 7th.
    - fakedang 2y ago
      [flagged]
      - MomsAVoxell 2y ago
        Anyone has a right to be a journalist. This right shall not be abrogated by any state.
        fakedang 2y ago
        [flagged]
        talldayo 2y ago
        Flip that statement on it's head. What respectable nation would fire upon a suspect in a press jacket without actually knowing who it is first? Who orders artillery and airstrikes on known press positions? Soviet doctrine? Countries with WWII logistics? Seems clear to me that this is a deliberate campaign of terror constructed by the IDF to deter any form of independent journalism in Gaza. No different than hasbara or the Hannibal Directive - orders passed down from the top get obeyed, even if it costs the truth or innocent lives.
ilbeeper 2y ago
I agree with the first part, at least in spirit. The second part though doesn't make sense. If the US president can send drones to kill terrorists without taking them to court, surely he can order hacking their phones. If you think that there's no case where the latter is ok you shouldn't you fight against the former first?
- ignoramous 2y ago
  > send drones to kill terrorists The part that you miss is, are they only killing "terrorists" extrajudicially? To take that propaganda at its face value is to ask, what else could they be killing brown people for, if not terrorism?
  - ilbeeper 2y ago
    I didn't say if I think that drone killing is justified or not, since I have no opinion on that - I don't know enough to form an opinion. I only say that since the government have the right to send killing drone it doesn't make sense to raise pitchforks against phone hacking
    - ignoramous 2y ago
      > I have no opinion ... I don't know enough to form an opinion. Why speak in hypotheticals supporting some phantom opinion? Concern trolling is even worse.
      - ilbeeper 2y ago
        It is not hypothetical, the fact is that killing drones are used in practice, and it just doesn't make sense to oppose lesser measures that are being used without judgement when killing is allowed.
        ignoramous 2y ago
        > killing is allowed You said it is okay / allowed because "terrorists". Otherwise, it is a heinous crime. Just like the Pegasus one.
o999 2y ago
Imagine if they chase NSO as hard as they chased Wikileaks
- nico 2y ago
  Well NSO does their work for them, so that’s not gonna happen Also, look at how the govt has acted in the last year or so, they will never move against Israel
- aprilthird2021 2y ago
  NSO helped Saudi kill a journalist for an American company and the father of American citizens. And we're still huggy buddies with Saudi's Crown Prince and Netanyahu. Citizens lives only matter so much to our corrupt rulers
cyanydeez 2y ago
Unfortunately, incorporation is how you whitewash normal criminal culpability to just a cost of doing business fine. Capitalism is neat that way. Diffusion of responsibility.
aprilthird2021 2y ago
L O L. No Israelis are ever extradited to the US for anything even though the US essentially financially bankrolls that entire country. It's basically a place we allow to go gloves off to militarily threaten our enemies, so we can sit back and maintain the "rights-based world order" without catching flak for our own deeds.
- aguaviva 2y ago
  Friday, October 20, 2017: WASHINGTON - Stanislav Nazarov, 46, a dual citizen of Israel and Russia, has been extradited from Israel to face charges in an indictment accusing him of taking part in an international money laundering scheme. Israel is quite financially independent these days, and has been so for decades. The US does not simply "bankroll the entire country" by any stretch. But hey, it's a free planet, and you can believe whatever you want to belive. I certainly wouldn't want to get between you and one of your pet narratives.
  - aprilthird2021 2y ago
    https://m.jpost.com/opinion/article-712631 https://m.jpost.com/opinion/article-712631 https://repository.law.umich.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?params=/context/mjil/article/1386/&path_info= https://repository.law.umich.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?params=... https://www.timesofisrael.com/diaspora-pedophiles-increasingly-use-israel-as-a-haven-activists-charge/ https://www.timesofisrael.com/diaspora-pedophiles-increasing... You're very aware what I'm saying is true on a general scale. Sure, exceptions exist. You also know that the aid the US gives is significant and if it hadn't been given every year for decades, Israel would be nothing like what it is right now, it may not even exist. Try refuting all the Israeli newspapers above which talk about how difficult it is to extradite obvious criminals from Israel. Apologies that you took my comment starting with "L O L" as if I literally meant no person ever in history has ever been extradited. Only a shockingly large portion have not been and will not be, enough to attract attention in the Israeli and foreign press.
    - aguaviva 2y ago
      [flagged]

bawolff 2y ago

Its not like this is that different than traditional "weapons" (i hate the "cyberweapons" analogy, but if the shoe fits). Sell guns to governments, even unsavoury ones, it is very rare anything will happen to you except in pretty extreme cases. Sell guns to street gangs, well that is a different story. Like i don't think this situation is different because it is "hacking".

Neonlicht 2y ago
All the cartels in Mexico buy their guns from America and nobody is going to jail over it.
- lupusreal 2y ago
  People do in fact get sent to prison for that, straw purchases are a federal felony. Not all of them actually get caught, which is true of any crime.
  - oaththrowaway 2y ago
    Except when the ATF does it, no big deal
    - buo 2y ago
      More information about this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATF_gunwalking_scandal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATF_gunwalking_scandal
    - lupusreal 2y ago
      Kind of like the CIA importing heroin and cocaine. The laws cover this scenario but we have a problem with especially poor enforcement when the crimes are committed by parts of the government.
onedognight 2y ago
The NSO created/ran cloud instances for each client country and reviewed and approved every target. The didn’t sell weapons like in your analogy. They were effectively assassins for hire. The problem with selling exploits is you want to maintain “ownership” of the exploit details, lest your customer just take the exploit and sell/use it without paying more or use it to attack you or your friends. This means you end up with veto power. I.e. culpability.
monkeyfun 2y ago
And meanwhile, if the government sells guns to cartels... no big deal. Rarely throw a fall guy under the bus. Or often not even that. Trying to remember the quote I last heard, something to the tune of "we don't want to punish, we want to educate", which was about "educating" LEOs and entire police departments they shouldn't be selling fun switch guns illegally to gangs and private buyers. (And do I even have to mention "fast and furious?" Hah! Feds get it the easiest.)

tehwebguy 2y ago

Certainly the ones that hack journalists should go to prison.

lifestyleguru 2y ago
Why should journalist badge provide some kind of protection shield? [1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pablo_Gonz%C3%A1lez_Yag%C3%BCe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pablo_Gonz%C3%A1lez_Yag%C3%BCe
- talldayo 2y ago
  In Israel's opinion? It shouldn't: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_journalists_killed_in_the_Israel%E2%80%93Hamas_war https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_journalists_killed_in_... Israeli forces killed 38x more journalists than Hamas did on October 7th.
  - fakedang 2y ago
    [flagged]
    - MomsAVoxell 2y ago
      Anyone has a right to be a journalist. This right shall not be abrogated by any state.
      - fakedang 2y ago
        [flagged]
        talldayo 2y ago
        Flip that statement on it's head. What respectable nation would fire upon a suspect in a press jacket without actually knowing who it is first? Who orders artillery and airstrikes on known press positions? Soviet doctrine? Countries with WWII logistics? Seems clear to me that this is a deliberate campaign of terror constructed by the IDF to deter any form of independent journalism in Gaza. No different than hasbara or the Hannibal Directive - orders passed down from the top get obeyed, even if it costs the truth or innocent lives.

ilbeeper 2y ago

I agree with the first part, at least in spirit. The second part though doesn't make sense. If the US president can send drones to kill terrorists without taking them to court, surely he can order hacking their phones. If you think that there's no case where the latter is ok you shouldn't you fight against the former first?

ignoramous 2y ago
> send drones to kill terrorists The part that you miss is, are they only killing "terrorists" extrajudicially? To take that propaganda at its face value is to ask, what else could they be killing brown people for, if not terrorism?
- ilbeeper 2y ago
  I didn't say if I think that drone killing is justified or not, since I have no opinion on that - I don't know enough to form an opinion. I only say that since the government have the right to send killing drone it doesn't make sense to raise pitchforks against phone hacking
  - ignoramous 2y ago
    > I have no opinion ... I don't know enough to form an opinion. Why speak in hypotheticals supporting some phantom opinion? Concern trolling is even worse.
    - ilbeeper 2y ago
      It is not hypothetical, the fact is that killing drones are used in practice, and it just doesn't make sense to oppose lesser measures that are being used without judgement when killing is allowed.
      - ignoramous 2y ago
        > killing is allowed You said it is okay / allowed because "terrorists". Otherwise, it is a heinous crime. Just like the Pegasus one.

o999 2y ago

Imagine if they chase NSO as hard as they chased Wikileaks

nico 2y ago
Well NSO does their work for them, so that’s not gonna happen Also, look at how the govt has acted in the last year or so, they will never move against Israel
aprilthird2021 2y ago
NSO helped Saudi kill a journalist for an American company and the father of American citizens. And we're still huggy buddies with Saudi's Crown Prince and Netanyahu. Citizens lives only matter so much to our corrupt rulers

cyanydeez 2y ago

Unfortunately, incorporation is how you whitewash normal criminal culpability to just a cost of doing business fine. Capitalism is neat that way. Diffusion of responsibility.

aprilthird2021 2y ago

L O L. No Israelis are ever extradited to the US for anything even though the US essentially financially bankrolls that entire country. It's basically a place we allow to go gloves off to militarily threaten our enemies, so we can sit back and maintain the "rights-based world order" without catching flak for our own deeds.

aguaviva 2y ago
Friday, October 20, 2017: WASHINGTON - Stanislav Nazarov, 46, a dual citizen of Israel and Russia, has been extradited from Israel to face charges in an indictment accusing him of taking part in an international money laundering scheme. Israel is quite financially independent these days, and has been so for decades. The US does not simply "bankroll the entire country" by any stretch. But hey, it's a free planet, and you can believe whatever you want to belive. I certainly wouldn't want to get between you and one of your pet narratives.
- aprilthird2021 2y ago
  https://m.jpost.com/opinion/article-712631 https://m.jpost.com/opinion/article-712631 https://repository.law.umich.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?params=/context/mjil/article/1386/&path_info= https://repository.law.umich.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?params=... https://www.timesofisrael.com/diaspora-pedophiles-increasingly-use-israel-as-a-haven-activists-charge/ https://www.timesofisrael.com/diaspora-pedophiles-increasing... You're very aware what I'm saying is true on a general scale. Sure, exceptions exist. You also know that the aid the US gives is significant and if it hadn't been given every year for decades, Israel would be nothing like what it is right now, it may not even exist. Try refuting all the Israeli newspapers above which talk about how difficult it is to extradite obvious criminals from Israel. Apologies that you took my comment starting with "L O L" as if I literally meant no person ever in history has ever been extradited. Only a shockingly large portion have not been and will not be, enough to attract attention in the Israeli and foreign press.
  - aguaviva 2y ago
    [flagged]