3 ms·

Qualcomm already had a "modify" licence, back from when they were doing their own custom ARM cores. So the actual central issue was if Qualcomm had the right t

by phire 2y ago

Qualcomm already had a "modify" licence, back from when they were doing their own custom ARM cores. So the actual central issue was if Qualcomm had the right to transfer the technology developed under the Nuvia architecture license to the Qualcomm architecture license.

fidotron 2y ago
To be precise, it now appears the dispute has moved as to whether Nuvia had the right to transfer things to Qualcomm. It strikes me as a surprising diversion to this, and I wonder how prepared for this outcome the respective teams were.
- phire 2y ago
  My memory is that before the lawsuit, Qualcomm were using both arguments, "we have the right to transfer the licence, and even if we didn't, we have our own license". The first argument was always the weaker argument, the license explicitly banned licence transfers between companies without explicit prior permission. Qualcomm were arguing that the fact they already had a licence counted as prior permission. But ARM bypassed that argument by just terminating the Nuvia licence, and by the time of the lawsuit qualcomm was down to the second argument. Which was good, it was the much stronger argument.
  - bonzini 2y ago
    But is it even a second company (and thus a license transfer) if Qualcomm bought Nuvia?
    - monocasa 2y ago
      It could be. Rumor is Intel (or AMD in the same situation) would lose the cross licensed parts of their x86 license if they were acquired.
      - philistine 2y ago
        Wonderful, another albatross over the head of the x64 architecture.
    - fc417fc802 2y ago
      I was wondering about that too. If I understand correctly, the Arm license includes a clause stipulating that it is invalidated if the company is acquired unless Arm grants permission.
      - pests 2y ago
        It makes sense. You wouldn't want to license something to a startup only for your competitor to buy them out from under you to get an advantage / bypassing talking to you directly.
jauntywundrkind 2y ago
I keep hearing these kinds of claims but... Qualcomm for years has sworn they didn't transfer the existing Nuvia tech. It's the Nuvia team, and a from scratch implementation. Qualcomm was saying pretty strongly they didn't allow any direct Nuvia IP to be imported and to pollute the new design. They saw this argument coming from day 1 & worked to avoid it. But everytime this case comes up, folks immediately revert to the ARM position that it's Nuvia IP being transfered. This alone is taking ARMs side, and seems not to resemble what Qualcomm tried to do.
- monocasa 2y ago
  I thought that the gen 1 oryon cores were using Nuvia source, but the gen 2 cores were from scratch implementation.
- camel-cdr 2y ago
  What did Qualcomm get from buying Nuvia it wouldn't have gotten from just hiring all Nuvia employees? Edit: I guess it wouldn't be that simple to do
  - pests 2y ago
    Acquihire's are very common. You can negotiate who is coming with you (or force getting the entire team and not just the A players), agreed to pay raises during the transfer, stock or other important roles, etc. Less unsettling for the employees too, having to go through the interview pipeline like a walk-in would. Sometimes its the entire goal. Leave a company to fill a need it can't solve itself with the plan to get bought back in later. Times have changed tho so who knows.
- ksec 2y ago
  >Qualcomm was saying pretty strongly they didn't allow any direct Nuvia IP to be imported and to pollute the new design. Which is the part that is questionable and I guess no way to prove unless we continue with the trial. The Nuvia core is said to be perfect on A0, and no one in the industry has ever done anything perfect on A0, especially with something as complex as modern CPU design. One could argue all the previous Nuvia Design IP were in the Nuvia's team's head memorised. They are basically recreating the same work done in Nuvia at Qualcomm. And that is I guess grey areas.

by phire 2y ago

fidotron 2y ago

To be precise, it now appears the dispute has moved as to whether Nuvia had the right to transfer things to Qualcomm. It strikes me as a surprising diversion to this, and I wonder how prepared for this outcome the respective teams were.

phire 2y ago
My memory is that before the lawsuit, Qualcomm were using both arguments, "we have the right to transfer the licence, and even if we didn't, we have our own license". The first argument was always the weaker argument, the license explicitly banned licence transfers between companies without explicit prior permission. Qualcomm were arguing that the fact they already had a licence counted as prior permission. But ARM bypassed that argument by just terminating the Nuvia licence, and by the time of the lawsuit qualcomm was down to the second argument. Which was good, it was the much stronger argument.
- bonzini 2y ago
  But is it even a second company (and thus a license transfer) if Qualcomm bought Nuvia?
  - monocasa 2y ago
    It could be. Rumor is Intel (or AMD in the same situation) would lose the cross licensed parts of their x86 license if they were acquired.
    - philistine 2y ago
      Wonderful, another albatross over the head of the x64 architecture.
  - fc417fc802 2y ago
    I was wondering about that too. If I understand correctly, the Arm license includes a clause stipulating that it is invalidated if the company is acquired unless Arm grants permission.
    - pests 2y ago
      It makes sense. You wouldn't want to license something to a startup only for your competitor to buy them out from under you to get an advantage / bypassing talking to you directly.

jauntywundrkind 2y ago

I keep hearing these kinds of claims but... Qualcomm for years has sworn they didn't transfer the existing Nuvia tech. It's the Nuvia team, and a from scratch implementation. Qualcomm was saying pretty strongly they didn't allow any direct Nuvia IP to be imported and to pollute the new design. They saw this argument coming from day 1 & worked to avoid it. But everytime this case comes up, folks immediately revert to the ARM position that it's Nuvia IP being transfered. This alone is taking ARMs side, and seems not to resemble what Qualcomm tried to do.

monocasa 2y ago
I thought that the gen 1 oryon cores were using Nuvia source, but the gen 2 cores were from scratch implementation.
camel-cdr 2y ago
What did Qualcomm get from buying Nuvia it wouldn't have gotten from just hiring all Nuvia employees? Edit: I guess it wouldn't be that simple to do
- pests 2y ago
  Acquihire's are very common. You can negotiate who is coming with you (or force getting the entire team and not just the A players), agreed to pay raises during the transfer, stock or other important roles, etc. Less unsettling for the employees too, having to go through the interview pipeline like a walk-in would. Sometimes its the entire goal. Leave a company to fill a need it can't solve itself with the plan to get bought back in later. Times have changed tho so who knows.
ksec 2y ago
>Qualcomm was saying pretty strongly they didn't allow any direct Nuvia IP to be imported and to pollute the new design. Which is the part that is questionable and I guess no way to prove unless we continue with the trial. The Nuvia core is said to be perfect on A0, and no one in the industry has ever done anything perfect on A0, especially with something as complex as modern CPU design. One could argue all the previous Nuvia Design IP were in the Nuvia's team's head memorised. They are basically recreating the same work done in Nuvia at Qualcomm. And that is I guess grey areas.