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Where I am from marriage is forever and there is no way to dissolve it without burning in eternal fire - it’s very much about ownership. Kudos on you to having

Where I am from marriage is forever and there is no way to dissolve it without burning in eternal fire - it’s very much about ownership. Kudos on you to having a modern marriage but marriage in the past (and also now) also is about ownership. It’s a literal contract between two people and you are legally obligated to take care of the other person.

paulryanrogers 2y ago
Ownership implies control without the consent of whomever is being controlled. Where you are from sounds horrific. Hopefully it changes for the better soon.
- indrora 2y ago
  This was... the US, Britain, etc for many years and much of the middle east and parts of them and Asia today. Women just aren't in control of their lives and personhood in so many ways under even modern marriage law. I believe it's still problematic in some US states and I know it's problematic in many places that we might even consider "civilized" where a woman cannot bring her husband for divorce, the husband must bring his wife for divorce. There are still places in the "civilized" world where it is considered legal for a man to force himself upon his wife against her will or enact violence upon her if she does not submit. Beyond that, there is an assumption in some layers of society that women will marry and have no autonomy over their lives. A good friend of mine in the early 90s faced extreme issue closing the joint account between her and her (recently deceased) husband. She was told that she needed her husband's "written and notarized approval" to take any action against the account, even though she was listed as the primary contact on the account because the system enforced that only male account holders were allowed to make changes. In fact, this system didn't allow a single woman to open a bank account until 1992! Another friend of mine has been attempting to get a hysterectomy voluntarily (every woman on her mother's side has developed cervical cancer in the last 4 generations), has no interest in ever having a child or getting married to a man for that matter, and has faced numerous doctors who will not even hear her out because "what if her future husband wants kids" just absolutely stalls the conversation. She has recently gotten further by having a local wiccan coven write some bullshit on paper that it's her "religious duty to nature" to have this happen, which has at least gotten a few doctors to read and go "I'll have to check in on this." Just this year, American women in the south were reminded that their vote is just as secret as their husband's. This spurred a wave of men who began calling for the stripping of the rights of women because they might vote differently than their husbands. See also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Married_Women%27s_Property_Act_1882 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Married_Women%27s_Property_Act... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Married_Women%27s_Property_Acts_in_the_United_States#Outcomes_and_backlash https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Married_Women%27s_Property_Act... https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-981-19-6978-2_8 https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-981-19-6978-2_... https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/women-required-to-obey-husband https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/women-required-to-obey-hu... https://www.npr.org/2024/11/03/nx-s1-5159978/republicans-for-harris-women-voters-secret-votes-quiet-voters-2024-election-trump https://www.npr.org/2024/11/03/nx-s1-5159978/republicans-for... https://www.msnbc.com/the-reidout/reidout-blog/women-voting-2024-maga-misogyny-rcna178275 https://www.msnbc.com/the-reidout/reidout-blog/women-voting-...
- llamaimperative 2y ago
  Yeah, it’s actually your perspective that’s the recent innovation. Most of history is closer to what GP described.
  - paulryanrogers 2y ago
    I'm well aware of US history. It's just that I'd rather not go back decades and certainly not centuries. Thankfully honor killings and FGM are quite rare in my part of the Midwest US, for now at least.

paulryanrogers 2y ago

Ownership implies control without the consent of whomever is being controlled. Where you are from sounds horrific. Hopefully it changes for the better soon.

indrora 2y ago
This was... the US, Britain, etc for many years and much of the middle east and parts of them and Asia today. Women just aren't in control of their lives and personhood in so many ways under even modern marriage law. I believe it's still problematic in some US states and I know it's problematic in many places that we might even consider "civilized" where a woman cannot bring her husband for divorce, the husband must bring his wife for divorce. There are still places in the "civilized" world where it is considered legal for a man to force himself upon his wife against her will or enact violence upon her if she does not submit. Beyond that, there is an assumption in some layers of society that women will marry and have no autonomy over their lives. A good friend of mine in the early 90s faced extreme issue closing the joint account between her and her (recently deceased) husband. She was told that she needed her husband's "written and notarized approval" to take any action against the account, even though she was listed as the primary contact on the account because the system enforced that only male account holders were allowed to make changes. In fact, this system didn't allow a single woman to open a bank account until 1992! Another friend of mine has been attempting to get a hysterectomy voluntarily (every woman on her mother's side has developed cervical cancer in the last 4 generations), has no interest in ever having a child or getting married to a man for that matter, and has faced numerous doctors who will not even hear her out because "what if her future husband wants kids" just absolutely stalls the conversation. She has recently gotten further by having a local wiccan coven write some bullshit on paper that it's her "religious duty to nature" to have this happen, which has at least gotten a few doctors to read and go "I'll have to check in on this." Just this year, American women in the south were reminded that their vote is just as secret as their husband's. This spurred a wave of men who began calling for the stripping of the rights of women because they might vote differently than their husbands. See also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Married_Women%27s_Property_Act_1882 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Married_Women%27s_Property_Act... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Married_Women%27s_Property_Acts_in_the_United_States#Outcomes_and_backlash https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Married_Women%27s_Property_Act... https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-981-19-6978-2_8 https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-981-19-6978-2_... https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/women-required-to-obey-husband https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/women-required-to-obey-hu... https://www.npr.org/2024/11/03/nx-s1-5159978/republicans-for-harris-women-voters-secret-votes-quiet-voters-2024-election-trump https://www.npr.org/2024/11/03/nx-s1-5159978/republicans-for... https://www.msnbc.com/the-reidout/reidout-blog/women-voting-2024-maga-misogyny-rcna178275 https://www.msnbc.com/the-reidout/reidout-blog/women-voting-...
llamaimperative 2y ago
Yeah, it’s actually your perspective that’s the recent innovation. Most of history is closer to what GP described.
- paulryanrogers 2y ago
  I'm well aware of US history. It's just that I'd rather not go back decades and certainly not centuries. Thankfully honor killings and FGM are quite rare in my part of the Midwest US, for now at least.