3 ms·

Banks are pretty good at doing an impression of phishing scams, unfortunately. Almost every red flag for a scammer has also been done by a bank, legitimately.

athenot 2y ago
This. Also healthcare providers, though they seem to have finally wised up. They would call me from poorly configured phone systems (so unrecognizable caller id) and the first thing they would ask is to confirm full name and date of birth. Patterns like this do a great deal of damage in desensitizing folks and making them accept dangerous patterns that get exploited by scams.
- hollerith 2y ago
  Even if you recognized it, the number shown by Caller ID is easy for the caller to spoof -- or at least it was a few years ago (the last time I paid attention).
  - athenot 2y ago
    Thankfully that part has vastly improved with STIR/SHAKEN, combined with number reputation management.
    - ipython 2y ago
      The problem with that, at least on my experience with iPhone, is you can only get the authentication signal after you’ve already hung up. The only thing I see is a small checkmark next to the “location” of the call in my recent call log. I can’t find any indication of a stir/shaken status in the active call screen. So asking people to take the step to confirm the call is legitimate won’t work- they can’t tell until they’ve already terminated the call. It’s useless for purpose imo.
      - vel0city 2y ago
        On my Pixel some calls just get auto-rejected. Others will get through but be marked with a red caution symbol for the picture and say "Scam Likely". Then finally sometimes the call will come through with just the number but still have that red caution symbol. I imagine it is doing something with STIR/SHAKEN along with how many other times similar calls have been flagged as spam calls.
        ipython 2y ago
        My carrier has a similar “scam likely” feature but afaik that is not directly tied to stir/shaken. I’ve also signed up to have calls rejected and can see them in the carrier app. I have reported at least a thousand different scam calls over the past two years and so my blocked number list is so large it freezes the phone for a minute or so while it loads. Still the scammers persist…
  - ryao 2y ago
    I remember when I used Ting, I could specify what would appear as caller id. If I had wanted to abuse this, I could easily have had it display whatever number I wanted instead of my name. Since a number of phones would display the caller id instead of the number when caller id was available, nobody would know that the number was not real. I am not sure if this has changed at all.
nottorp 2y ago
Banks maybe, but Google? Google only has "AI" support and that doesn't call us yet. So it's safe to assume that any call from Google is fake.
- SoftTalker 2y ago
  Yeah Google will never call you about your free gmail account, just as Microsoft will never call you about a virus on your home computer.
adrianmsmith 2y ago
There was a comment on Hacker News, which alas I can no longer locate, where a guy said he'd been called by his bank and the bank wanted him to answer various security questions. He said he was happy to do so, but firstly needed the bank to verify who they were, or to call the bank back on a telephone number on their website. The bank refused, so he refused to give them any details. The bank then blocked his bank account, meaning he couldn't pay his university tuition on time, meaning his student visa was no longer valid as he was no longer "studying", meaning he had to leave the country.
- namaria 2y ago
  A bank blocked an account because they called someone and that person didn't provide them with personal data? That sounds unlikely.
  - ryao 2y ago
    I am not surprised. I know of a bank that disabled a credit card following a single missed payment for the crime of failing to answer a phone call.
    - ElevenLathe 2y ago
      This is one of the reasons I use a local credit union with a handful of branches only in my region. I can always re-establish trust by just walking into a branch to do business, and likewise they can always just ask me to walk in with my driver's license if they need to verify that I'm really me.
      - michaelt 2y ago
        A reasonable decision in your case, no doubt. But the mentions of "his student visa was no longer valid [...] meaning he had to leave the country" make me think walking to a local bank branch might not have been an easy option in the post adrianmsmith recalls.
ryao 2y ago
I have had my telephone company ask me to give them a code sent to my device. It is presumably to prove to the company that the representative is talking to me so that bad actors low in the company cannot start randomly messing with people’s accounts. It is the equivalent of the bad click here. The only real defense is to know the difference between a mechanism meant to authorize someone a the company and a mechanism to authorize you. Confuse the latter for the former like the victim did here and bad things will happen.
- braveyellowtoad 2y ago
  Interesting. Was that after you called them or they called you?
  - ryao 2y ago
    It was when I called them.
ipqk 2y ago
I called a bank to increase my ATM limit. The agent sent me an SMS code to verify my identity and wanted me to read it back to him. The message said not to give the code to any human. Sigh.

athenot 2y ago

This. Also healthcare providers, though they seem to have finally wised up. They would call me from poorly configured phone systems (so unrecognizable caller id) and the first thing they would ask is to confirm full name and date of birth. Patterns like this do a great deal of damage in desensitizing folks and making them accept dangerous patterns that get exploited by scams.

hollerith 2y ago
Even if you recognized it, the number shown by Caller ID is easy for the caller to spoof -- or at least it was a few years ago (the last time I paid attention).
- athenot 2y ago
  Thankfully that part has vastly improved with STIR/SHAKEN, combined with number reputation management.
  - ipython 2y ago
    The problem with that, at least on my experience with iPhone, is you can only get the authentication signal after you’ve already hung up. The only thing I see is a small checkmark next to the “location” of the call in my recent call log. I can’t find any indication of a stir/shaken status in the active call screen. So asking people to take the step to confirm the call is legitimate won’t work- they can’t tell until they’ve already terminated the call. It’s useless for purpose imo.
    - vel0city 2y ago
      On my Pixel some calls just get auto-rejected. Others will get through but be marked with a red caution symbol for the picture and say "Scam Likely". Then finally sometimes the call will come through with just the number but still have that red caution symbol. I imagine it is doing something with STIR/SHAKEN along with how many other times similar calls have been flagged as spam calls.
      - ipython 2y ago
        My carrier has a similar “scam likely” feature but afaik that is not directly tied to stir/shaken. I’ve also signed up to have calls rejected and can see them in the carrier app. I have reported at least a thousand different scam calls over the past two years and so my blocked number list is so large it freezes the phone for a minute or so while it loads. Still the scammers persist…
- ryao 2y ago
  I remember when I used Ting, I could specify what would appear as caller id. If I had wanted to abuse this, I could easily have had it display whatever number I wanted instead of my name. Since a number of phones would display the caller id instead of the number when caller id was available, nobody would know that the number was not real. I am not sure if this has changed at all.

nottorp 2y ago

Banks maybe, but Google? Google only has "AI" support and that doesn't call us yet. So it's safe to assume that any call from Google is fake.

SoftTalker 2y ago
Yeah Google will never call you about your free gmail account, just as Microsoft will never call you about a virus on your home computer.

adrianmsmith 2y ago

There was a comment on Hacker News, which alas I can no longer locate, where a guy said he'd been called by his bank and the bank wanted him to answer various security questions. He said he was happy to do so, but firstly needed the bank to verify who they were, or to call the bank back on a telephone number on their website. The bank refused, so he refused to give them any details. The bank then blocked his bank account, meaning he couldn't pay his university tuition on time, meaning his student visa was no longer valid as he was no longer "studying", meaning he had to leave the country.

namaria 2y ago
A bank blocked an account because they called someone and that person didn't provide them with personal data? That sounds unlikely.
- ryao 2y ago
  I am not surprised. I know of a bank that disabled a credit card following a single missed payment for the crime of failing to answer a phone call.
  - ElevenLathe 2y ago
    This is one of the reasons I use a local credit union with a handful of branches only in my region. I can always re-establish trust by just walking into a branch to do business, and likewise they can always just ask me to walk in with my driver's license if they need to verify that I'm really me.
    - michaelt 2y ago
      A reasonable decision in your case, no doubt. But the mentions of "his student visa was no longer valid [...] meaning he had to leave the country" make me think walking to a local bank branch might not have been an easy option in the post adrianmsmith recalls.

ryao 2y ago

I have had my telephone company ask me to give them a code sent to my device. It is presumably to prove to the company that the representative is talking to me so that bad actors low in the company cannot start randomly messing with people’s accounts. It is the equivalent of the bad click here. The only real defense is to know the difference between a mechanism meant to authorize someone a the company and a mechanism to authorize you. Confuse the latter for the former like the victim did here and bad things will happen.

braveyellowtoad 2y ago
Interesting. Was that after you called them or they called you?
- ryao 2y ago
  It was when I called them.

ipqk 2y ago

I called a bank to increase my ATM limit. The agent sent me an SMS code to verify my identity and wanted me to read it back to him. The message said not to give the code to any human. Sigh.