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> as they said: "They could stop persecuting and murdering Palestinians, stop occupying Palestine, and agree to either a one state or two state solution that re

> as they said: "They could stop persecuting and murdering Palestinians, stop occupying Palestine, and agree to either a one state or two state solution that recognizes Palestinians as human beings with a right to live." There's really barely any evidence Hamas would agree to a 2 state solution. The overwhelming evidence is it won't agree to it. Same for one state solution - Hamas would of course agree to cancel the state of Israel (thus creating something you could call a one state, slowly or quickly driving the Jews away) but definitely not to any kind of shared power democracy. To truly appease Hamas Israel needs to commit national suicide. That's quite a big ask for a people as persecuted as the Jews.

SauciestGNU 2y ago
I don't want to pick on you because I think you raise reasonable points, but I see frequently the notion that if you have a one state solution, the Arab majority would treat the Israel minority in the way that the Israelis have been treating the Arab. I think this is spurious, we have no indication that this would actually be the case. I believe that this isn't a religious conflict and that an the to apartheid and occupation could actually bring peace. But it bothers me that people see the Arab Palestinian population as one incapable of accepting peace and driven by revenge or antisemitism.
- weatherlite 2y ago
  > But it bothers me that people see the Arab Palestinian population as one incapable of accepting peace and driven by revenge or antisemitism What do you think drives the Palestinian movement and what are its main goals? If it was simply to get their own state surely they could have achieved it by now (as far back as in 1947). So there seems to be much more going on than simply attaining statehood - there is a very strong irredentist force among Palestinians that wants to go back to the way things were 80 or a 100 years ago. Which means returning to their original homes (I don't see how you could do that without throwing out the Jewish 'colonists'). To me that does seem to be motivated at least partly by revenge. As for antisemitism among Palestinians, it's there and widely documented (you could come up with good reasons why it's there, but denying it's there is wrong).
  - amritananda 2y ago
    >If it was simply to get their own state surely they could have achieved it by now The PLO has accepted a two-state solution since 1981, for nearly 44 years. This is what Avner Yaniv called the "peace offensive", and is especially dangerous because it weakens Israeli attempts to deny a Palestinian state. The solution to this is simple: provocation to encourage extremist elements. Of course in 1982 Israel went a bit further and used provocation to set a precedent to invade Lebanon in an attempt to destroy the PLO entirely. >Which means returning to their original homes (I don't see how you could do that without throwing out the Jewish 'colonists'). This is not what the right to return is. This is what Amnesty has to say about return: >Where possible, Palestinians should be able to return to their original home or lands. If this is not possible -- because they no longer exist, have been converted to other uses, or because of a valid competing claim -- they should be allowed to return to the vicinity of their original home. "Valid competing claim" includes the modern-day owner of the home.
    - weatherlite 2y ago
      > This is what Amnesty has to say about return: So Amnesty decides for the Palestinians what the right of return means? Nice. Yeah, sounds super realistic that's what Hamas means when they talk about the right of return.
_yb2s 2y ago
Do they need to appease Hamas, or just the average, and presumably more moderate Palestinian enough to make them stop feeling persecuted, and stop supporting Hamas themselves? This is a sincere question, I think it is worth stating that outright as I feel it could be read as trolling or disingenuous.

SauciestGNU 2y ago

I don't want to pick on you because I think you raise reasonable points, but I see frequently the notion that if you have a one state solution, the Arab majority would treat the Israel minority in the way that the Israelis have been treating the Arab. I think this is spurious, we have no indication that this would actually be the case. I believe that this isn't a religious conflict and that an the to apartheid and occupation could actually bring peace. But it bothers me that people see the Arab Palestinian population as one incapable of accepting peace and driven by revenge or antisemitism.

weatherlite 2y ago
> But it bothers me that people see the Arab Palestinian population as one incapable of accepting peace and driven by revenge or antisemitism What do you think drives the Palestinian movement and what are its main goals? If it was simply to get their own state surely they could have achieved it by now (as far back as in 1947). So there seems to be much more going on than simply attaining statehood - there is a very strong irredentist force among Palestinians that wants to go back to the way things were 80 or a 100 years ago. Which means returning to their original homes (I don't see how you could do that without throwing out the Jewish 'colonists'). To me that does seem to be motivated at least partly by revenge. As for antisemitism among Palestinians, it's there and widely documented (you could come up with good reasons why it's there, but denying it's there is wrong).
- amritananda 2y ago
  >If it was simply to get their own state surely they could have achieved it by now The PLO has accepted a two-state solution since 1981, for nearly 44 years. This is what Avner Yaniv called the "peace offensive", and is especially dangerous because it weakens Israeli attempts to deny a Palestinian state. The solution to this is simple: provocation to encourage extremist elements. Of course in 1982 Israel went a bit further and used provocation to set a precedent to invade Lebanon in an attempt to destroy the PLO entirely. >Which means returning to their original homes (I don't see how you could do that without throwing out the Jewish 'colonists'). This is not what the right to return is. This is what Amnesty has to say about return: >Where possible, Palestinians should be able to return to their original home or lands. If this is not possible -- because they no longer exist, have been converted to other uses, or because of a valid competing claim -- they should be allowed to return to the vicinity of their original home. "Valid competing claim" includes the modern-day owner of the home.
  - weatherlite 2y ago
    > This is what Amnesty has to say about return: So Amnesty decides for the Palestinians what the right of return means? Nice. Yeah, sounds super realistic that's what Hamas means when they talk about the right of return.

_yb2s 2y ago

Do they need to appease Hamas, or just the average, and presumably more moderate Palestinian enough to make them stop feeling persecuted, and stop supporting Hamas themselves? This is a sincere question, I think it is worth stating that outright as I feel it could be read as trolling or disingenuous.