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I was just in CA for a few weeks and drove in SF quite a bit. There are Waymo cars everywhere and from the perspective of a driver I was more than a little caut
by mstade 2y ago
I was just in CA for a few weeks and drove in SF quite a bit. There are Waymo cars everywhere and from the perspective of a driver I was more than a little cautious driving behind or next to one of them.
I would rate their driving as quite good, but their signaling of intent was terrible. More than once did I see them use turn signals, only to never actually turn. Turn the signals on, then off again, then on again, eventually turn perhaps but not always.
Humans are terrible at this too, but we also use more subtle and inadvertent signals like the slight movement to the line telling me they're likely about to switch lanes, only to see the signal go on halfway into it. Those subtle signals are easier to pick up on than a robot driving more or less perfectly straight while signaling, turning of signals, turning them back on again, and so on. Also super creepy with empty driver seats, and no one responsible to make eye contact with.
But the actual driving wasn't bad, as it turns out. Never had or saw a near miss, anything reckless or otherwise remarkable. I can see myself getting used to this tech and I would love for it to succeed, because man driving for anything but fun really sucks.
- mulmen 2y agoGood point about intent. As a passenger I appreciated how smooth it was but I can see how the lack of “body language” could be disorienting for human drivers. The Waymo driving style is almost passive-aggressive. It has superhuman situational awareness and knowledge. I wonder if it isn’t using blinkers effectively but it’s everyone else that’s technically wrong. It’s also not perfect so who knows. There’s probably still bugs to work out.
- necovek 2y agoThat sounds great for Waymo: I'd love to experience a ride in one and I'll make sure to catch a ride next time I am in CA. I wonder what it does in common situations, like stop-and-go traffic with two streets joining at an angle, where one has to yield? In that case, if everyone simply followed the rules, the cars in the yielding street would never get through. While I am passive-aggressive myself as a driver, I religiously follow alternating one-by-one from either street "rule", even if I am in a street that has right of way, to ensure traffic moves for both of those and reduce chances of someone overly aggressively moving in from the yielding street. If it is still passive aggressive in that case, it will work ok while there are other passive human drivers in the road, but would quickly fall apart when everyone drives the same.
- mulmen 2y ago> I wonder what it does in common situations, like stop-and-go traffic with two streets joining at an angle, where one has to yield? Plan a better route? I can’t picture the situation you describe. Yielding traffic just… yields. When there’s an opening they take it. On my ride the Waymo took a right turn on red. How is the situation you describe different? Do you still yield unnecessarily when there are cars behind you?
- necovek 2y agoI was talking about a case where there are cars behind me. And it's "unnecessarily" only legally, but most drivers understand this as a driving etiquette in congested traffic. Picture two streets joining together, both with long lines of vehicles in them. One of them has right of way, the other one doesn't. When everyone drives "passively aggressively" (like Waymo is being described to), an opening never shows up, and "yielding" cars wait until the rush hour clears up, causing people in that street to go bonkers. This happens quite frequently in many old European cities I've been to in the rush hour or when anything unusual happens (because there are no alternative routes and streets are tight: like a crash or broken-down car ahead might cause this with lots of traffic). Not sure how much it applies to Waymo and SFO, but I can imagine it certainly happens in some areas.
- mulmen 2y agoAh I see, like merging on to a freeway. In Washington the law is actually to zipper merge (take turns) so I would expect Waymo to do that. It’s a good question and I’m not sure what Waymo would do there. Based on my limited experience I expect it would navigate that situation correctly. The bias is to go (safely), not wait for perfect conditions.
- necovek 2y agoThanks for the term as well ("zipper merge") — that's what I was referring to. Yeah, I really wonder how it'd fare in that case while differentiating between "there are just 3 cars there, no need to yield" and "it's an infinite inflow of traffic, better yield to one car"?
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- nextweek2 2y agoIn England we call them "Indicators" as opposed to turn signals. My driving instructor said, they are call that because they are only indicating they might go that way. Never assume they will. It was some defensive driving advice. I can understand that it's annoying that inconsistent use of turn signals is an annoyance, it isn't as bad a people that don't use them at all, but my understand is that the American road system doesn't have roundabouts like we do, which kind of require good indicator use for smooth driving.
- mulmen 2y agoWe have roundabouts. We don’t have them everywhere but then I bet you don’t either. My home town in Idaho has built at least five I am aware of in as many years, with more planned. My neighborhood in Seattle plants a tree in the middle of unmarked intersections which effectively creates a mini roundabout.
- Polizeiposaune 2y agoI've driven in England and New Zealand, and they really had them everywhere. Yes, we have them in the US, but we don't have enough of them that you can expect that all drivers know what to do with them. It's entirely too common for approaching drivers to be unaware that they must yield to vehicles already in the circle.
- krisoft 2y ago> I bet you don’t either. Oh you haven’t been to the UK if you think that. :) They are absolutely everywhere. Traffic planers love them.
- engineer_22 2y agoI think that as a pedestrian it would be hard for me to get used to. I like to look at the eyes of the driver to make sure they can see me.
- j_bum 2y agoIn the future we’ll tell our kids, “try to make eye contact with the driver’s sensors before crossing the street”
- futureshock 2y agoI get what you are saying. However where I live in Florida, drivers are so pedestrian blind and oblivious that they’ll run you down right in the middle of the crosswalk while playing on their phone. Friend of a friend was just killed as a pedestrian a week ago. Bring on the robodrivers!
- sho_hn 2y agoDon't move to South Korea, where nearly everyone has tinted windshields and you literally can't.
- lmm 2y agoOk I won't? What a horrible thing to normalise.
- H8crilA 2y agoTo avoid this very problem North Korea has no cars at all. Clever.
- underdeserver 2y agoWhy do they have tinted windshields?
- Mistletoe 2y agoHaving just rewatched the original Total Recall, I can only think of one perfect answer for this. Need to add a Johnny Cab guy to the driver seat and have his head look the direction he is going to go.
- gruez 2y ago>More than once did I see them use turn signals, only to never actually turn. Turn the signals on, then off again, then on again, eventually turn perhaps but not always. >Humans are terrible at this too, but we also use more subtle and inadvertent signals like the slight movement to the line telling me they're likely about to switch lanes, only to see the signal go on halfway into it. Isn't waymo's behavior preferred? I'd rather see turn signals well in advance of any possible lane changes, rather than the moment before the cars actually start changing lanes. Sure, it'd be ideal if the turn signals were well in advance and there were no false positives, but road conditions are changing constantly, so by necessity you're going to be trading off between advance notice and false positives.
- leobg 2y agoHe said he can’t trust the turn signals. I’m case of a human driver, there would be the behavioral cues to fall back on. But with Waymo, you can’t predict its next move at all.
- Arnt 2y agoDid he see it turn without signals?
- leobg 2y agoNot explicitly, I think. But if it uses the turn signals without turning, I wouldn’t feel to confident that an actual turn would be preceded by a signal, much less one with enough time for me to react (“I will turn” vs “I am turning now”).
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- returningfory2 2y agoThe Waymo failure mode of false positives (signals but doesn't turn) seems much better than the human failure mode of false negatives (doesn't signal but turns)!
- tommiegannert 2y agoHuman drivers also sometimes forget to turn their signals off, to the same effect as the described Waymo behavior: uncertainty of intent.
- yencabulator 2y ago> use more subtle and inadvertent signals like the slight movement to the line telling me they're likely about to switch lanes For what it's worth, this was explicitly taught in Northern European driving classes, especially in the context of turns. It would literally translate as "grouping" or "making a formation". You "group right" to make a right turn (think aligning text left/center/right). You can look at a line of cars and immediately know which ones are preparing to turn, even from an angle where turn signals aren't noticeable.