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>The only way to stop it is for Israel to stop oppressing Gaza to begin with, That would be good. I don't have a dog in this fight, but it's a little too late

>The only way to stop it is for Israel to stop oppressing Gaza to begin with, That would be good. I don't have a dog in this fight, but it's a little too late since IIRC the oppression started decades ago as a security measure to regain a stalemate after excessive bombings from proudly hateful genocidal jihadists. And with hesitation from Israel, only after terrorists proved repeatedly to have too much freedom of movement outside of Gaza. Exactly as you say, the sons & grandsons of those evildoers have followed in the footsteps and drawn greater oppression, and what now looks like for the first time (or maybe finally?) an equally hateful genocidal response from Israel. But "equal" is now more lopsided than ever since Israel had to bolster its defenses so much for so long that it's now incredibly destructive when deployed as an offensive force. We shouldn't lose sight of what could have been, even though so much has been lost already. If they want to stop the killing as seriously as possible, every day since Oct 7 Hamas continues to have the opportunity to surrender the hostages and lay down their arms. Hamas clearly started this present war whether it was intended to get out of hand or not. What kind of conclusion is supposed to be possible other than complete vanquishment unless they surrender beforehand and agree to more effective security demands going forward? As a neutral observer you just have to accept that initiating a war like this directly establishes Hamas in at least a slight moral deficit compared to whom they viciously attacked. All other things being equal, it does point the finger of responsibility at Hamas for all subsequent destruction until the war is completely over. Even if things are not equal at all, Hamas could always end it any time they wanted. It would have saved a lot of lives, but not as many as if Hamas refrained from slaughtering civilians to begin with. The situation will eventually settle and judgment will coalesce whether it was in the best interest of Palestinians for Hamas to trigger a response-in-kind from the IDF the way they did.

text0404 2y ago
for a neutral observer, these are some pretty demeaning statements which don't seem to question the Israeli narrative whatsoever. the underlying assumption to your comments also seems to be that Palestinians have brought this upon themselves, which is an interesting argument - "if they stopped resisting and just let the Israelis subjugate them, there would be peace." > IIRC the oppression started decades ago as a security measure to regain a stalemate after excessive bombings from proudly hateful genocidal jihadists you're recalling incorrectly. > Exactly as you say, the sons & grandsons of those evildoers have followed in the footsteps and drawn greater oppression we're talking about civilians, not combatants, not "evildoers" - normal human beings living their lives and being oppressed and murdered by an occupying force. separating humans into "evil" and "good" is how we get into nation-states targeting children with precision weapons. unfortunately it's not that clear-cut.
- fakedang 2y ago
  The main difference between Gaza and other conflicts (such as Ukraine or Iraq) is that Hamas has and uses the willing (even if coerced) cooperation of the civilian population as part of its military strategy. Using humans as meat shields and using teenagers and young men in offensive combat roles is exactly what Hamas does. In comparison, in Iraq or Ukraine, the Iraqi and Ukrainian militaries made/make a clear distinction between military and civilian personnel (which their adversaries didn't respect). Even the Taliban makes sure to not use civilians as part of their military strategy (if we're going by the comparison with resistance fighter groups). The Gaza situation is more akin to Vietnam, where also the civilian population was actively integrated with the military and helped them in more ways direct than indirect. The key difference here being that Vietnam was invaded by France and then the US, while Hamas were the ones who stirred up the hornet's nest in Israel.
  - lostlogin 2y ago
    > The key difference here being that Vietnam was invaded by France and then the US, while Hamas were the ones who stirred up the hornet's nest in Israel. Doesn’t this depend on when you define the conflict as starting? When do you think it started?
    - fakedang 2y ago
      Tbf this isn't Hamas' first rodeo. They've been firing rockets into Israel since their conception. Then there was that ceasefire and the pullout by Israel from the Strip, but Hamas never really believed in a ceasefire. 15 years later, we ended up here.
      - lostlogin 2y ago
        Thats exactly it. And this didn’t start 15 years ago. There is not much point in arguing about what kicked it off either - that won’t fix it.
        2y ago
insane_dreamer 2y ago
> as a neutral observer your post certainly doesn't sound like it > the oppression started decades ago as a security measure to regain a stalemate after excessive bombings from proudly hateful genocidal jihadists you need to update your history; the oppression started in 1948 (late 1947, really)
- p3rls 2y ago
  If only someone wrote about what happened before 1947! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_the_Ottoman_Empire#Antisemitism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_the_Ott...

text0404 2y ago

for a neutral observer, these are some pretty demeaning statements which don't seem to question the Israeli narrative whatsoever. the underlying assumption to your comments also seems to be that Palestinians have brought this upon themselves, which is an interesting argument - "if they stopped resisting and just let the Israelis subjugate them, there would be peace." > IIRC the oppression started decades ago as a security measure to regain a stalemate after excessive bombings from proudly hateful genocidal jihadists you're recalling incorrectly. > Exactly as you say, the sons & grandsons of those evildoers have followed in the footsteps and drawn greater oppression we're talking about civilians, not combatants, not "evildoers" - normal human beings living their lives and being oppressed and murdered by an occupying force. separating humans into "evil" and "good" is how we get into nation-states targeting children with precision weapons. unfortunately it's not that clear-cut.

fakedang 2y ago
The main difference between Gaza and other conflicts (such as Ukraine or Iraq) is that Hamas has and uses the willing (even if coerced) cooperation of the civilian population as part of its military strategy. Using humans as meat shields and using teenagers and young men in offensive combat roles is exactly what Hamas does. In comparison, in Iraq or Ukraine, the Iraqi and Ukrainian militaries made/make a clear distinction between military and civilian personnel (which their adversaries didn't respect). Even the Taliban makes sure to not use civilians as part of their military strategy (if we're going by the comparison with resistance fighter groups). The Gaza situation is more akin to Vietnam, where also the civilian population was actively integrated with the military and helped them in more ways direct than indirect. The key difference here being that Vietnam was invaded by France and then the US, while Hamas were the ones who stirred up the hornet's nest in Israel.
- lostlogin 2y ago
  > The key difference here being that Vietnam was invaded by France and then the US, while Hamas were the ones who stirred up the hornet's nest in Israel. Doesn’t this depend on when you define the conflict as starting? When do you think it started?
  - fakedang 2y ago
    Tbf this isn't Hamas' first rodeo. They've been firing rockets into Israel since their conception. Then there was that ceasefire and the pullout by Israel from the Strip, but Hamas never really believed in a ceasefire. 15 years later, we ended up here.
    - lostlogin 2y ago
      Thats exactly it. And this didn’t start 15 years ago. There is not much point in arguing about what kicked it off either - that won’t fix it.
      - 2y ago

insane_dreamer 2y ago

> as a neutral observer your post certainly doesn't sound like it > the oppression started decades ago as a security measure to regain a stalemate after excessive bombings from proudly hateful genocidal jihadists you need to update your history; the oppression started in 1948 (late 1947, really)

p3rls 2y ago
If only someone wrote about what happened before 1947! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_the_Ottoman_Empire#Antisemitism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_the_Ott...