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Well, I'm pretty certain by any reasonable (UN, AI, HRN, etc.) standard, it became genocide quite some time ago when Israel: 1. Used precision guided weapons i

Well, I'm pretty certain by any reasonable (UN, AI, HRN, etc.) standard, it became genocide quite some time ago when Israel: 1. Used precision guided weapons in unguided-mode to take out entire buildings including schools and hospitals 2. Used precision guided weapons in guided-mode to take out cars and food supply trucks of the World Central Kitchen workers when the cars were clearly demarcated as UN 3. Blocked I18n (not just UN) food & water aid 4. Precisely demolished water, sewer, and electrical infrastructure 5. Denied PoWs fundamental rights under the UN charter

addicted 2y ago
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- text0404 2y ago
  > 4. I’ve seen absolutely no evidence for this you can do a basic google search to answer your questions. i searched for "israel palestine water access" and these were the first page: "Human Rights Watch accuses Israel of acts of genocide in Gaza over water access" - https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c75wqr0k3dyo https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c75wqr0k3dyo (same coverage from Guardian: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/dec/19/israel-accused-of-act-of-genocide-over-restriction-of-gaza-water-supply-human-rights-watch https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/dec/19/israel-accused...) "Israel using water as weapon of war as Gaza supply plummets by 94%, creating deadly health catastrophe: Oxfam" - https://www.oxfam.org/en/press-releases/israel-using-water-weapon-war-gaza-supply-plummets-94-creating-deadly-health https://www.oxfam.org/en/press-releases/israel-using-water-w... https://www.al-monitor.com/originals/2024/12/israel-strikes-yemen-ports-power-stations-retaliation-against-houthis https://www.al-monitor.com/originals/2024/12/israel-strikes-... https://www.csis.org/analysis/siege-gazas-water https://www.csis.org/analysis/siege-gazas-water https://www.aljazeera.com/program/newsfeed/2024/9/1/israel-cuts-water-and-power-as-jenin-siege-worsens https://www.aljazeera.com/program/newsfeed/2024/9/1/israel-c... https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2023/10/israel-opt-israel-must-lift-illegal-and-inhumane-blockade-on-gaza-as-power-plant-runs-out-of-fuel/ https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2023/10/israel-opt-is... https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/in-gazas-widening-humanitarian-crisis-water-access-becomes-dire https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/in-gazas-widening-humanit... > 5. Hamas fighters are not fighting in uniform. They do qualify as Prisoners of War. this is not adequate cover for Israel's indiscriminate killing of civilians. the geneva conventions do not work this way. > Israel has blocked aid for short periods of time in certain areas. For the most part, the failure of aid reaching where it needs to go has been a result of Israel being unable to provide security. We’ve seen what happens when Israelis don’t provide security for aid workers. They get looted and killed. no, they've blocked access for long periods of time. this is why there is a famine: https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2024/07/un-experts-declare-famine-has-spread-throughout-gaza-strip https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2024/07/un-experts-d... they are also killing aid workers who have cleared their routes with the IDF beforehand: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Central_Kitchen_aid_convoy_attack https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Central_Kitchen_aid_conv... https://news.un.org/en/story/2024/09/1154206 https://news.un.org/en/story/2024/09/1154206 > the pro Palestinian sides have absolutely destroyed the opportunity for moderation and negotiation by labeling Israel’s actions as genocide from day 1 yes, because the genocide has been occuring since 1947. i would highly recommend reading the history of this conflict as it started long before Oct 7 2023.
- calmbonsai 2y ago
  > Hamas fighters are not fighting in uniform. They do qualify as Prisoners of War. I'm assuming you meant "do not". Please see the U.S. State Department's report on the "exceptional measures" involved: https://www.state.gov/reports/2023-country-reports-on-human-rights-practices/israel-west-bank-and-gaza/ https://www.state.gov/reports/2023-country-reports-on-human-.... This is in direct violation of the UN Declaration of Human rights. > I’ve seen absolutely no evidence for this. Can you share evidence that Israel is precisely destroying water, sewer and electrical infrastructure? Google is your friend here. I didn't (couldn't initially) believe it myself until details of this (initial) BBC report came out in May. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-68969239 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-68969239 What, indeed, could possibly be the anti-terrorism purpose of destroying solar panels? > Why in the world would Israel fire expensive precision guided missiles in unguided modes instead of using unguided missiles instead in the first place? Because, apparently, a preponderance of exigent circumstances dictated a rapid response--collateral damage be damned. Being more than passingly familiar with guidance systems technology and avionics in "smart" glide-bombs, and their exorbitant costs relative to "dumb iron", this is just stupid. Additionally, the IDF has the most highly trained urban assault force and undercover (Duvdevan) anti-terrorist commando (Egoz) units in the world and yet they somehow _must_ bomb an entire hospital to (potentially) take out a single cell?! > For the most part, the failure of aid reaching where it needs to go has been a result of Israel being unable to provide security. We’ve seen what happens when Israelis don’t provide security for aid workers. Notable that the "inability to provide security" seems highly selective wrt the source of the aid and not its contents. See details of the WCK attack: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Central_Kitchen_aid_convoy_attack https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Central_Kitchen_aid_conv... and also this UN report https://news.un.org/en/story/2024/04/1148141 https://news.un.org/en/story/2024/04/1148141 . I completely concur on "genocide" being an attempted "Day 1 PR-flank", but far too many precise and planned actions have since been taken. In a perverse way, the Israel government played into Hamas' hands at the expense of the Palestinian people, trade, the quality of life of the Israeli people and further instability in the region. As I mentioned in a prior thread, see the actions of the British in east Africa against the Kikuyu for a close historic analog. I had hopes that Gallant's official ouster would be a political pole-star/umbrella under which the Knesset could rally, but that (sadly) appears not to be the case.
- mo7061 2y ago
  israel is definitely commiting genocide in Gaza
tim333 2y ago
I'm not so sure - a standard definition is "acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group." I guess you can call civilian casualties fighting terrorists and restricting food that but it detracts from the use of the term for real round them up and kill them all type genocides. And then you'd wonder if things like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Dresden https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Dresden count as genocide. And then if you use it like that it kind of loses its meaning if all war is genocide. I note the title of this HN story is basically a lie. That wasn't the title of the linked article, or it's content. The article says what they have seen could be consistent with genocide, not "declares the war in Gaza as genocide." It specifically says they are not declaring it a genocide as they feel they don't have the legal expertise.
- aguaviva 2y ago
  And then you'd wonder if things like the bombing of Dresden count as genocide. Yup, that's exactly what it was. A "mini" one, granted, perhaps 5 percent (if we count all the other terror bombings conducted by the Allies - Dresden was but one of many) the size of the vastly larger genocide perpetrated by the Nazis. But there's little point in arguing that that's what the deliberate targetting of civilian populations in Germany (both during and after the war, considering the mass expulsions that followed) did not effectively amount to a "mini" genocide, nonetheless. And then if you use it like that it kind of loses its meaning if all war is genocide. No, pointing out this fairly obvious fact does not, by any stretch, imply that "all war" is genocide. Only the large-scale, deliberate targeting of civilian populations "with intent to destroy [them] as a group, in whole or in part", per the definition above. That wasn't the title of the linked article, or it's content. That's a valid point, and indeed the article should probably be flagged on that basis.
  - tim333 2y ago
    I get what you are saying and it's about definitions of words but if you go that way you get so yeah the Nazi's committed genocide but so did their opponents so it doesn't really matter. Maybe we need a new term for excessive killing of civilians but short of trying to wipe out a whole people.

addicted 2y ago

[flagged]

text0404 2y ago
> 4. I’ve seen absolutely no evidence for this you can do a basic google search to answer your questions. i searched for "israel palestine water access" and these were the first page: "Human Rights Watch accuses Israel of acts of genocide in Gaza over water access" - https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c75wqr0k3dyo https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c75wqr0k3dyo (same coverage from Guardian: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/dec/19/israel-accused-of-act-of-genocide-over-restriction-of-gaza-water-supply-human-rights-watch https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/dec/19/israel-accused...) "Israel using water as weapon of war as Gaza supply plummets by 94%, creating deadly health catastrophe: Oxfam" - https://www.oxfam.org/en/press-releases/israel-using-water-weapon-war-gaza-supply-plummets-94-creating-deadly-health https://www.oxfam.org/en/press-releases/israel-using-water-w... https://www.al-monitor.com/originals/2024/12/israel-strikes-yemen-ports-power-stations-retaliation-against-houthis https://www.al-monitor.com/originals/2024/12/israel-strikes-... https://www.csis.org/analysis/siege-gazas-water https://www.csis.org/analysis/siege-gazas-water https://www.aljazeera.com/program/newsfeed/2024/9/1/israel-cuts-water-and-power-as-jenin-siege-worsens https://www.aljazeera.com/program/newsfeed/2024/9/1/israel-c... https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2023/10/israel-opt-israel-must-lift-illegal-and-inhumane-blockade-on-gaza-as-power-plant-runs-out-of-fuel/ https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2023/10/israel-opt-is... https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/in-gazas-widening-humanitarian-crisis-water-access-becomes-dire https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/in-gazas-widening-humanit... > 5. Hamas fighters are not fighting in uniform. They do qualify as Prisoners of War. this is not adequate cover for Israel's indiscriminate killing of civilians. the geneva conventions do not work this way. > Israel has blocked aid for short periods of time in certain areas. For the most part, the failure of aid reaching where it needs to go has been a result of Israel being unable to provide security. We’ve seen what happens when Israelis don’t provide security for aid workers. They get looted and killed. no, they've blocked access for long periods of time. this is why there is a famine: https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2024/07/un-experts-declare-famine-has-spread-throughout-gaza-strip https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2024/07/un-experts-d... they are also killing aid workers who have cleared their routes with the IDF beforehand: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Central_Kitchen_aid_convoy_attack https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Central_Kitchen_aid_conv... https://news.un.org/en/story/2024/09/1154206 https://news.un.org/en/story/2024/09/1154206 > the pro Palestinian sides have absolutely destroyed the opportunity for moderation and negotiation by labeling Israel’s actions as genocide from day 1 yes, because the genocide has been occuring since 1947. i would highly recommend reading the history of this conflict as it started long before Oct 7 2023.
calmbonsai 2y ago
> Hamas fighters are not fighting in uniform. They do qualify as Prisoners of War. I'm assuming you meant "do not". Please see the U.S. State Department's report on the "exceptional measures" involved: https://www.state.gov/reports/2023-country-reports-on-human-rights-practices/israel-west-bank-and-gaza/ https://www.state.gov/reports/2023-country-reports-on-human-.... This is in direct violation of the UN Declaration of Human rights. > I’ve seen absolutely no evidence for this. Can you share evidence that Israel is precisely destroying water, sewer and electrical infrastructure? Google is your friend here. I didn't (couldn't initially) believe it myself until details of this (initial) BBC report came out in May. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-68969239 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-68969239 What, indeed, could possibly be the anti-terrorism purpose of destroying solar panels? > Why in the world would Israel fire expensive precision guided missiles in unguided modes instead of using unguided missiles instead in the first place? Because, apparently, a preponderance of exigent circumstances dictated a rapid response--collateral damage be damned. Being more than passingly familiar with guidance systems technology and avionics in "smart" glide-bombs, and their exorbitant costs relative to "dumb iron", this is just stupid. Additionally, the IDF has the most highly trained urban assault force and undercover (Duvdevan) anti-terrorist commando (Egoz) units in the world and yet they somehow _must_ bomb an entire hospital to (potentially) take out a single cell?! > For the most part, the failure of aid reaching where it needs to go has been a result of Israel being unable to provide security. We’ve seen what happens when Israelis don’t provide security for aid workers. Notable that the "inability to provide security" seems highly selective wrt the source of the aid and not its contents. See details of the WCK attack: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Central_Kitchen_aid_convoy_attack https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Central_Kitchen_aid_conv... and also this UN report https://news.un.org/en/story/2024/04/1148141 https://news.un.org/en/story/2024/04/1148141 . I completely concur on "genocide" being an attempted "Day 1 PR-flank", but far too many precise and planned actions have since been taken. In a perverse way, the Israel government played into Hamas' hands at the expense of the Palestinian people, trade, the quality of life of the Israeli people and further instability in the region. As I mentioned in a prior thread, see the actions of the British in east Africa against the Kikuyu for a close historic analog. I had hopes that Gallant's official ouster would be a political pole-star/umbrella under which the Knesset could rally, but that (sadly) appears not to be the case.
mo7061 2y ago
israel is definitely commiting genocide in Gaza

tim333 2y ago

I'm not so sure - a standard definition is "acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group." I guess you can call civilian casualties fighting terrorists and restricting food that but it detracts from the use of the term for real round them up and kill them all type genocides. And then you'd wonder if things like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Dresden https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Dresden count as genocide. And then if you use it like that it kind of loses its meaning if all war is genocide. I note the title of this HN story is basically a lie. That wasn't the title of the linked article, or it's content. The article says what they have seen could be consistent with genocide, not "declares the war in Gaza as genocide." It specifically says they are not declaring it a genocide as they feel they don't have the legal expertise.

aguaviva 2y ago
And then you'd wonder if things like the bombing of Dresden count as genocide. Yup, that's exactly what it was. A "mini" one, granted, perhaps 5 percent (if we count all the other terror bombings conducted by the Allies - Dresden was but one of many) the size of the vastly larger genocide perpetrated by the Nazis. But there's little point in arguing that that's what the deliberate targetting of civilian populations in Germany (both during and after the war, considering the mass expulsions that followed) did not effectively amount to a "mini" genocide, nonetheless. And then if you use it like that it kind of loses its meaning if all war is genocide. No, pointing out this fairly obvious fact does not, by any stretch, imply that "all war" is genocide. Only the large-scale, deliberate targeting of civilian populations "with intent to destroy [them] as a group, in whole or in part", per the definition above. That wasn't the title of the linked article, or it's content. That's a valid point, and indeed the article should probably be flagged on that basis.
- tim333 2y ago
  I get what you are saying and it's about definitions of words but if you go that way you get so yeah the Nazi's committed genocide but so did their opponents so it doesn't really matter. Maybe we need a new term for excessive killing of civilians but short of trying to wipe out a whole people.