4 ms·

Congratulations, haven't had a reason to mess with it myself, but I've heard it described online as the most secure piece of consumer hardware before or since

SteveNuts 2y ago
I'm curious how it fares against a modern iPhone or similar, has that ever been compared?
- saagarjha 2y ago
  iPhone has a fairly different threat model (and is more valuable to attack).
liamwire 2y ago
I have a hard time believing the ‘since’ part of that description. Intuition suggests the latest iPhone would take that crown each year.
- spencerflem 2y ago
  Misremembered, it was saying it was the most secure code Microsoft has written, not anyone From the excellent: https://icode4.coffee/?p=954 https://icode4.coffee/?p=954
- walterbell 2y ago
  > the latest iPhone would take that crown each year Apple continuously patches zero-day kernel exploits against the latest iOS and hardware, https://support.apple.com/en-us/100100 https://support.apple.com/en-us/100100
  - anyfoo 2y ago
    That is far from the only thing that would be relevant for such a metric. (For one thing, you also have to ask which kernel.)
    - walterbell 2y ago
      iPhone and iPad devices have been breached by zero-days for years, unlike Xbox One.
      - anyfoo 2y ago
        Still simplistic. "Breached" can mean a number of things, and the incentives here are very different.
        walterbell 2y ago
        Breached = remote control of device, bypass all vendor and owner security policy, and exfiltration of non-public data.
        anyfoo 2y ago
        And that was achieved?
        walterbell 2y ago
        Multiple times via iOS zero days. One example, https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2024/dec/20/whatsapp-pegasus-spyware-nso-group-hacking https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2024/dec/20/whatsapp-... > NSO Group Technologies, was accused in a lawsuit by Meta’s messaging app of infecting and surveilling the phones of 1,400 people over a two-week period in May 2019 via its notorious Pegasus software. The judge.. found the company had violated state and federal US hacking laws.. was used to infiltrate not only WhatsApp but also iPhones to extract pictures, emails and texts.. victims of the hack identified by Meta were senior government officials, journalists, human rights activists, political dissidents and diplomats.
        anyfoo 2y ago
        5 years ago, by state level actors. How many state level actors are trying to breach the Xbox? Your original statement was “there are kernel vulnerabilities being fixed, therefore iPhones are less secure than the Xbox one”. It’s just not that simple. I can’t make any assessment about which of those are more secure without a serious look, but this isn’t it.
  - StrauXX 2y ago
    Sure, but there are many more people looking at iPhone security than at Xboxes. The incentives, both monetary and otherwise, are much greater with iPhones than they ever were with consoles.
jsheard 2y ago
I think you might be mixing up the Xbox 360 with the Xbox One, the former was ultimately compromised in several ways, but the latter's security has held up extremely well for 11 years and counting. The Xbox One and its successor are easily the most secure consoles ever made. Obligatory: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7VwtOrwceo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7VwtOrwceo
- spencerflem 2y ago
  Found it! I misremembered, it was making a slightly different claim "The Xbox 360 hypervisor is probably the most secure piece of code Microsoft has ever written." from the excellent article Tony Hawk's Pro Strcpy https://icode4.coffee/?p=954 https://icode4.coffee/?p=954
  - landr0id 2y ago
    The Xbox 360 was overall a very, very secure device. While we don't know exactly how the folks who discovered the hypervisor syscall handler bug were able to get plaintext, it's theorized that it came from development kit and SDK leaks. With an SDK and dev kit someone could dump boot loaders and the HV. Otherwise on a retail console you can't do much. The hard drives are not encrypted but all content that can possibly contain code / save data is signed. Save data cannot contain code but introduces scripting engine / save parsing attack surface, but you can't modify it without first dumping keys from a retail console. To dump keys from a retail console you have to get code exec in the hypervisor. To attack the hypervisor you have be able to dump the hypervisor to audit it. To dump the hypervisor you have to be able to read its contents or dump it from flash. The flash is encrypted with a per-console key (and I don't think you can sniff the bus?) and RAM is encrypted. Realistically if it weren't for the original syscall handler bug and dev kits getting into researcher's hands, the Xbox 360 may have never been hacked.
    - markus_zhang 2y ago
      Stupid question, is the reason that people cannot simply dump the ROM as they do with say routers is that the rom is encrypted? But if they have the SDK they can decrypt it?

SteveNuts 2y ago

I'm curious how it fares against a modern iPhone or similar, has that ever been compared?

saagarjha 2y ago
iPhone has a fairly different threat model (and is more valuable to attack).

liamwire 2y ago

I have a hard time believing the ‘since’ part of that description. Intuition suggests the latest iPhone would take that crown each year.

spencerflem 2y ago
Misremembered, it was saying it was the most secure code Microsoft has written, not anyone From the excellent: https://icode4.coffee/?p=954 https://icode4.coffee/?p=954
walterbell 2y ago
> the latest iPhone would take that crown each year Apple continuously patches zero-day kernel exploits against the latest iOS and hardware, https://support.apple.com/en-us/100100 https://support.apple.com/en-us/100100
- anyfoo 2y ago
  That is far from the only thing that would be relevant for such a metric. (For one thing, you also have to ask which kernel.)
  - walterbell 2y ago
    iPhone and iPad devices have been breached by zero-days for years, unlike Xbox One.
    - anyfoo 2y ago
      Still simplistic. "Breached" can mean a number of things, and the incentives here are very different.
      - walterbell 2y ago
        Breached = remote control of device, bypass all vendor and owner security policy, and exfiltration of non-public data.
        anyfoo 2y ago
        And that was achieved?
        walterbell 2y ago
        Multiple times via iOS zero days. One example, https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2024/dec/20/whatsapp-pegasus-spyware-nso-group-hacking https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2024/dec/20/whatsapp-... > NSO Group Technologies, was accused in a lawsuit by Meta’s messaging app of infecting and surveilling the phones of 1,400 people over a two-week period in May 2019 via its notorious Pegasus software. The judge.. found the company had violated state and federal US hacking laws.. was used to infiltrate not only WhatsApp but also iPhones to extract pictures, emails and texts.. victims of the hack identified by Meta were senior government officials, journalists, human rights activists, political dissidents and diplomats.
        anyfoo 2y ago
        5 years ago, by state level actors. How many state level actors are trying to breach the Xbox? Your original statement was “there are kernel vulnerabilities being fixed, therefore iPhones are less secure than the Xbox one”. It’s just not that simple. I can’t make any assessment about which of those are more secure without a serious look, but this isn’t it.
- StrauXX 2y ago
  Sure, but there are many more people looking at iPhone security than at Xboxes. The incentives, both monetary and otherwise, are much greater with iPhones than they ever were with consoles.

jsheard 2y ago

I think you might be mixing up the Xbox 360 with the Xbox One, the former was ultimately compromised in several ways, but the latter's security has held up extremely well for 11 years and counting. The Xbox One and its successor are easily the most secure consoles ever made. Obligatory: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7VwtOrwceo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7VwtOrwceo

spencerflem 2y ago
Found it! I misremembered, it was making a slightly different claim "The Xbox 360 hypervisor is probably the most secure piece of code Microsoft has ever written." from the excellent article Tony Hawk's Pro Strcpy https://icode4.coffee/?p=954 https://icode4.coffee/?p=954
- landr0id 2y ago
  The Xbox 360 was overall a very, very secure device. While we don't know exactly how the folks who discovered the hypervisor syscall handler bug were able to get plaintext, it's theorized that it came from development kit and SDK leaks. With an SDK and dev kit someone could dump boot loaders and the HV. Otherwise on a retail console you can't do much. The hard drives are not encrypted but all content that can possibly contain code / save data is signed. Save data cannot contain code but introduces scripting engine / save parsing attack surface, but you can't modify it without first dumping keys from a retail console. To dump keys from a retail console you have to get code exec in the hypervisor. To attack the hypervisor you have be able to dump the hypervisor to audit it. To dump the hypervisor you have to be able to read its contents or dump it from flash. The flash is encrypted with a per-console key (and I don't think you can sniff the bus?) and RAM is encrypted. Realistically if it weren't for the original syscall handler bug and dev kits getting into researcher's hands, the Xbox 360 may have never been hacked.
  - markus_zhang 2y ago
    Stupid question, is the reason that people cannot simply dump the ROM as they do with say routers is that the rom is encrypted? But if they have the SDK they can decrypt it?