5 ms·

Question: how is it that nobody knew how much VW Porche owned? Is there no way to see who owns a certain stock, or what stock a company owns?

svjunkie 18y ago
I'm sure disclosure laws vary by country, but in the U.S. companies must provide this information to the SEC (via form 13-F and others). On an unrelated note, I believe a better suited word in this case is "innocuous," not "inconspicuous."
dabeeeenster 18y ago
You get different brokers to buy it on your behalf bit by bit, anonymously. From there it depends on the laws of the country you are operating within. Companies often do this when selling stock too, so as to not draw attention to themselves or their positions.
- swombat 18y ago
  Except that, in the US and UK, that's illegal. In Germany, though, where this happened, it's not. That's not a good thing for Germany.
  - dabeeeenster 18y ago
    It's only illegal for companies though, right? If individuals do it they don't need to declare anything do they?
    - Harkins 18y ago
      I've poked through FEC data (lots is available free online via FTP) and seen releases indicating when an individual owns mroe than 5% of a public company. I understand that to be the reporting threshold but could be wrong. Remember, in the US legal system, companies are people. And the legal system is reluctant to create laws restricting only corporate behavior.
  - jsrn 18y ago
    ... and it's not a good thing for hedge funds playing with billions to apparently not know about the laws of the market they are investing in:-)
jsrn 18y ago
The regulatory loophole they exploited only exists with cash settled options [1] - IIRC the hole will be closed this spring with new legislation. Btw. another German Company (Schaeffler) used the same loophole last summer to secretely buy Continental (with much less success, it seems). [1] Cash settlement - Cash-settled options do not require the actual delivery of the underlier. Instead, the corresponding cash value of the underlier is netted against the strike amount and the difference is paid to the owner of the option. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exercise_(options) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exercise_(options)
- nandemo 18y ago
  Thanks. Every article I read mentioning the Porsche/VW affair simply said Germany didn't require large shareholders to disclosure their ownership, which surprised me. Now it makes a little more sense. I figure one could buy deep in-the-money options and practically own the stocks, but nobody (except one's counterpart) would know.

svjunkie 18y ago

I'm sure disclosure laws vary by country, but in the U.S. companies must provide this information to the SEC (via form 13-F and others). On an unrelated note, I believe a better suited word in this case is "innocuous," not "inconspicuous."

dabeeeenster 18y ago

You get different brokers to buy it on your behalf bit by bit, anonymously. From there it depends on the laws of the country you are operating within. Companies often do this when selling stock too, so as to not draw attention to themselves or their positions.

swombat 18y ago
Except that, in the US and UK, that's illegal. In Germany, though, where this happened, it's not. That's not a good thing for Germany.
- dabeeeenster 18y ago
  It's only illegal for companies though, right? If individuals do it they don't need to declare anything do they?
  - Harkins 18y ago
    I've poked through FEC data (lots is available free online via FTP) and seen releases indicating when an individual owns mroe than 5% of a public company. I understand that to be the reporting threshold but could be wrong. Remember, in the US legal system, companies are people. And the legal system is reluctant to create laws restricting only corporate behavior.
- jsrn 18y ago
  ... and it's not a good thing for hedge funds playing with billions to apparently not know about the laws of the market they are investing in:-)

jsrn 18y ago

The regulatory loophole they exploited only exists with cash settled options [1] - IIRC the hole will be closed this spring with new legislation. Btw. another German Company (Schaeffler) used the same loophole last summer to secretely buy Continental (with much less success, it seems). [1] Cash settlement - Cash-settled options do not require the actual delivery of the underlier. Instead, the corresponding cash value of the underlier is netted against the strike amount and the difference is paid to the owner of the option. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exercise_(options) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exercise_(options)

nandemo 18y ago
Thanks. Every article I read mentioning the Porsche/VW affair simply said Germany didn't require large shareholders to disclosure their ownership, which surprised me. Now it makes a little more sense. I figure one could buy deep in-the-money options and practically own the stocks, but nobody (except one's counterpart) would know.